Adam and Eve could not have children while they were in the Garden of Eden. They lacked the capacity to bear children in the innocent state in which they then existed. See 2 Ne. 2: 23.
They had been given the gift of childbearing as an endowment from God. The endowment of the capacity did not mean they had the means or understanding at the time to act upon it. Without the fall, they would not have been able to act on the endowment. They were like little children who are born male and female with the capacity to one day become parents, but who are immature and innocent, and therefore unable to bear children.
The great offense was in Satan's control of the timing. Had they remained in the Garden throughout the Sabbath day of rest then they would have received the commandment to partake of the fruit in the Lord's timing. At this point they would have moved from their innocent state into a condition not unlike the Millennial day. The "fall" would have transitioned to a Terrestrial state, rather than a Telestial state.
So in other words, the Lord's original intention was for us to live in a terrestial world, like unto Millenial conditions?
ReplyDeleteWould those conditions really have tested us sufficiently?
I think this is a very important thing to understand about the Fall. It is also a token about lifestyles here in this temporary world.
ReplyDeleteHowever, almost anytime I bring it up, there is a big fuss over it. Many times the fuss is so great that I cannot even finish explaining. Just this Sunday it happened again with people shouting, "No! No!" as I was just starting to explain. But I usually try to finish anyway, because sometimes there is someone open to it.
But I notice a common theme throughout all the arguments: they had to take the fruit at the time Satan offered it, because there was no other way and that it is the way God meant it to be.
How sad that the same lies that brought about the offense are still believed in full force today even within the church. This perpetuates a telestial lifestyle.
If we can let there be another way than what we assume, a better way, then God can start to teach us some amazing things.
It is interesting that they simply did not wait for the "further instructions".
ReplyDeleteWas it God’s will that this world never fall to the Telestial state? If Adam and Eve had done things right would we now be in a Terrestrial state?
ReplyDeleteI have heard it said that this planet is the most wicked of all God’s creations. I have always wondered if it was because of what happened in the garden. Is it because the other planets did not fall to the Telestial state?
This post brings so many questions to my mind.
ReplyDelete1- You imply the Garden of Eden was in a celestial state. I'd always thought it was terrestrial.
2- If Eve had waited for the command to eat the fruit, would she still have been commanded to hearken to the counsel of her husband? It seems like that's a necessary part of a house of order.
3- If Satan was doing what had been done elsewhere, it suggests there's always a temptation to rush the timing. Which further suggests the tempter is sometimes successful in controlling the timing and sometimes he's not.
4- When Adam and Eve choose to wait for the command, and the earth transitions to a terrestrial state (where I assume Satan is bound), is there still the need for an atonement when there's been no transgression? Would the atonement be required to return things to a celestial state?
Thanks Denver
Interesting thoughts. Like to read this kind of stuff. It seems the premise though is that Adam fell on Satans time line. Rather than on His own. I believe that the Joke was on Satan, who thought it, the fall, was his doing, however, "for he knew not the mind of God,". Was Satans timeline followed, or was Adams timing perfect?
ReplyDeleteare we not now still in the seventh day of rest? God has rested by turning the physical creation over to all the tiny Adams on the earth today, MAn in his ruddy earth abode as Lord over the whole of it. All the spiritual creation was finished by the Gods prior to mortality. Most of the physical too. However, Man and the creation of men and animals still continues. The Lord is now allowing us to create, for a 'little season'. And soon...because of that one thing, because he let men have the earth for a time, the earth will be without form, void and desolate, and the week will start over.
Reading through the post he may be implying, however subtly, this idea. However, to say that the round or cyclical, ring shaped, existence which our plan is based on could have been shortened and made better seems odd to me, and illogical. if you by pass the fall by transgression, you take the Glory of willingly falling to a telestial being from a celestial one from Adam. IT was his to choose, as a celestial being, life or death. he choose death that man may be. By falling to the depths, giving his entire life over to mortality, he can now be exalted above the stars as The Exalted Father. If he doesn't fall in this manner, the Savior doesn't come in his manner, with zero negative Karma having put all enemies beneath his feet. Thus he too, as Adam, would perform an atonement amongst a more perfect people. So he would have lowered himself less, thus qualifying for less exaltation.
The argument against what he is saying may go something like this:
"What then, if this is a terrestial edenic world for an entire cycle, of the vast Majority (read 90%+) of the earths inhabitants who needed a telestial world for exaltation? Without complete opposition in this manner, could Michael's seed qualify to be raised? Would it be fair for most of his children's first few steps on the earth to be to a terrestial abode, when the rest of humanity has had to master a telestial one or worse, first?
By taking of the fruit of knowledge (are they the same tree, being in the same place?) he is enabled with all mankind to seek the tree of life. You cannot seek one without having gone through the other... This being the Lords plan, what father Adam preformed, how can we then say that Satans timing was off? Or was Adam and Eves timing exactly on? Could they have had as many children, intelligences to exalt, had they been terrestial beings being born?
By partaking of the fruit the natural thing to happen to the bodies of Adam and Eve was degeneration. IT was the natural process, partake of earthly fruit, become earthly.
The fact of the matter comes down to conjecture, needing revelation to answer it. Did the further instructions they would have received include a way for the plan to continue with out the brutal means of a fall. IS there some means of exalting children through a zionistic state, without the in between fallen telestial state?
there are other thoughts that this brings up but I'll let them rest (not my blog!)
This discussion is going to go far beyond the point of the post. But I think that is my question, What is the point of this post? :-)
Warren, explain your thought line more in depth if you would. How would the plan work for all Gods children skipping a world with Satans oppostion?
Along these lines, who commanded Adam to put on the silly fig apron? And why in the heck do we keep it on!? :-)
HMMM.... Thought provoking stuff.
My thoughts on the Apron... not silly at all. (though, It used to bother me till I considered the following.)
ReplyDeleteTo me the apron represents our agency. This is why we keep it on, even as we enter into the presence of the Lord. There could be more to it than this, but this is what I've come up with so far.
-- Denver's piano tuner ;)
I believe the world was innocent before Adam, but science doesn't allow for the idea that the earth was celestial in its glory before Adam. This earth has gone through a great many stages geologically, the "snowball earth" stage being one of them. The snowball earth implies that the earth's climate was extremely cold at that point in time. And we have had ice ages and so on. And so, whatever label you put on the earth's state before Adam, you must take into account that ultimately, these labels are really talking about spiritual things, not physical states of things such as climate and temperature. Furthermore, it is pretty much beyond dispute, at least in my mind, that B. H. Roberts and James E. Talmage were right about death before Adam among animals and plants.
ReplyDelete