Tuesday, June 8, 2010

Alma 13:2

Continuing with Alma 13: 2:
"And those priests were ordained after the order of his Son, in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption."
Now this is important stuff here. We are really being told something quite amazing. Look at these words!
To be "ordained after the order of his Son" it must be done "in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption." Did you get that?
Think about these words carefully.
The "manner" must be in a way which will let people know or understand how to "look forward to His Son for redemption."
So, let's clear away the institutional garbage that surrounds our thinking.
Christ WAS NOT ordained by being sustained by a congregation.
Christ WAS NOT ordained by having hands laid upon Him by another man.
Christ DID NOT carry a credential with Him or a certificate of priestly authority.
Christ WAS NOT part of the established priestly hierarchy.
We have no record of His ordination at all. We only have established, priestly class officials asking Christ about where He got His authority from. And we have Christ simply refusing to answer their question.

Christ showed that He in fact held priestly authority by His demonstration of power.  More importantly, He taught profound truths with such passing simplicity and convincing prose that His message necessarily came from a higher source. 
In word and deed He put on display His power and authority.
But what is the verse in Alma speaking about?  How does one become "ordained" in such a manner that people learning of it will then know how to look forward (or back) to the Savior and understand His redeeming power?
Do they put on display, by the words and precepts they speak, the profound simplicity and convincing prose of the angels themselves?  Are they able to show their ordination by speaking words of eternal life, as He did?
How does this "ordination" acquire or show redeeming power?
How can obtaining authority by ordination to this priesthood be something which will let people know their Lord better?
What is really going on for those who hold actual priestly authority, being ordained in the required manner?  Do they acquire more than administrative authority from an institution? Do they receive power from on high?  Can you get it anywhere other than from on high? Is this why the power of the priesthood is inseparably connected with the powers of heaven? What have we Saints been doing?  Practicing? Holding ourselves forth to possess?
Where can we get this ordination after the order of the Son of God?
Forget what you've been taught. Read the Book of Mormon and remove the condemnation under which this people labor. Really study its words. They are alien to your prejudices and presumptions.  But they ARE in fact the words of life. You really can get closer to God by abiding its precepts than through any other book!  Amazingly, this is one of the very precepts which necessarily forces you to draw closer to God!
What a marvelous work and a wonder! Will the wonder never cease?  (Only if you reject it.)  It is a font of living water which constantly renews and floods forth more and new information endlessly, until at last we are also caught up in the visions of eternity and know our Lord. Then we needn't ask another to know the Lord, for all shall know Him.
I labor to help you know Him; to bring you to Him. The primary means to accomplish that remains the Book of Mormon.  But only if you actually let it speak to you and reveal its many hidden secrets.
I'm only asking questions here.  You'll have to figure out the answers.


  1. Although the Doctrine and Covenants discusses the "administrative authority from an institution" extensively, it also testifies to the principle you are expounding on in this post. I believe The Book of Mormon is so valuable because it can be much more plainly seen.

  2. In regards to the "order of his Son..."

    Here is the definition we usually associate with that phrase:

    or·der   [awr-der] –noun:
    prevailing course or arrangement of things; established system or regime.

    but what if we apply other definitions:

    * an authoritative direction or instruction; command; mandate.

    * a condition in which each thing is properly disposed with reference to other things and to its purpose; methodical or harmonious arrangement.

    * a direction or commission to make, provide, or furnish something.

    As far as priestly "power" goes, I just reread D&C 76 and it seems to have taken on a new level of meaning. Especially with verses 10, 13, 42, 52, and 116.

    Lastly, D&C 50:36 and 40 really touched me. Sorry to not include the body of text.


  3. Gaining Priesthood power is not dependant on being associated with the Church. Anyone, no matter what religion or no religion at all, can obtain Priesthood power & use it to bless others. It comes directly from heaven according to our righteousness, faith & especially love, the same as the Holy Ghost does.

    If someone is truely righteous they can have the Holy Ghost with them & have complete Priesthood power as much as any member of the Church.

    The authorization to use that Priesthood power in certain settings, like Church callings, can be a different story though.

  4. I don't believe that for one minute, anonymous. This is also something that I have never heard Denver teach, and I don't think you can justify that from the scriptures and revelations.

    The ordinances of salvation, which are still administered by the LDS church, are an essential part of the righteousness required to be prepared to receive this kind of power.

    I think (and correct me if I'm wrong, Denver) that we're really talking about a higher plane, an addition to the priesthood administered by the institution of the church, this isn't an "instead of." I think this is clear in Second Comforter.

  5. Denver,
    I am grateful for your focus on bringing people to Christ. That is so clear to me now.
    I used to be a Counselor in Mental Health/Psych, a Sponsor and attendee of Recovery meetings(including AA). BOTH Institutions now try to focus the person on the Counselor or on the Sponsor. In AA's early days No one really told each other what to do, they shared principles and experiences. Bill W the Co-Founder of AA had a experience where he was taken to a Mountain top (he could not tell if he was in his body or not) and lost the desire to drink. He was baptized of Fire and the Holy Ghost. Now AA is so Watered now with Social Psychology its not very effective in bringing people to Christ. The first AA group focused on acepting Christ and finding HIM.

    I learned that any Counselor, Sponsor, Priesthood Leader is only "good" if they point you to the REAL Power of Christ.

    Any other way is Priestcraft.

  6. I have to say Denver, you offer great questions to ponder and point us to the scriptures in ways that truly help enlighten. I am finding that good questions are striking me on their own now more frequently as I study the scriptures, my mind slowly starting to open up to more that is offered there. Thank you for helping with this.

  7. continuing:

    Think of men like Lincoln and Washington... Presidents who claimed to be led by the Lord. They had no priestly ordination from the church. What about those who go thru the veil such as Mohammed? What about all the guys in the BOM, who were offspring of Lehi and Ishmael, mulekites or jaredites... who obtained power from on high, performed miracles, established churches... all the while a lineage of priesthood or birthright promises stayed in jerusalem for the Lord to come thru? If the main congregation or Israel was in the east, whom the Lord himself would descend thru... and a few families were impressed to come here in the west... how can they have descendents who later established churches or "movements" as DS calls them, outside the congregation in the east? What about John the Baptist and the Lord himself who were teaching outside the usual priesthood leadership of the day?

    Where are the prophecies today? Where is the expounding of doctrines found in scriptures and the revelations already given to Joseph Smith? Why do I seem to get more spiritual understanding from a few LDS authors, the sciptures and early church teachings? Why are things being watered and dumbed down so much in our modern church? Where are the men whom God is plainly and clearly speaking thru? Men declaring repentance to a back sliding congregation? Leaders who actually weep for a more zion like congregation, were we could be living teachings and truths found in all of our scriptures that we do not? Teaching new things? Teaching that we need to get back to the things God has already revealed? When was the last time our leaders got up and said "I spoke with God face to face last night, here's what he said...". Are these not the examples we read in our own sacred texts? Do we no longer believe in those examples and manifestations of power of the past? Were are the testimonies of ordained apostles in the past 100 yrs of meeting with the savior, becoming true witnesses? Are we worthy to have the Lord's name on our buildings and name badges? Is His name upon us? Is He speaking thru us? Why not? We claim all the priestly ordinations and rights to such things. Who really is on the Lord's side? Who can he speak thru today? When will we repent as a whole so that we can even get back to these greater things?

    Just some thoughts...

  8. Ben, watch carefully what anonymous said: obtain power in the priesthood from on high... THEN be given authority over others in the congregation or institution that is only a help meet to get people into the church of the firstborn. Joseph HELD ZERO AUTHORITY GIVEN BY LAYING ON OF HANDS BY MAN OR ANGEL (except being directed or told what to do by angels for and behalf of the Lord - which I think God's word is enough) before 1829. He used the power of God to translate an entire record still with no priesthood as we view it. He was still somehow ready to meet with angels and have visions without any priestly ordination. All this without priestly ordination that we like to tote around and take pride in having today, telling others they have nothing.

    Don't we think we should be putting people in leadership positions in a church/congregation who have TRUE power from on high first?

    The church, the ordinations to the priesthood is all practice for the real thing. The real thing must be obtained in order to have the "sealing power" or the spiritual gift to speak and act for God as he actually directs. Our leaders should be members of the church of the firstborn BEFORE we sustain them into their positions... or who qualify to obtain them quickly, so that they can help us to enter into the same communication and station with God individually. THis is our great error. This is our calamity. Our condemnation is thinking we have all we need for simply putting people into priestly administrative callings. They speak smooth things and most are just fine with that... though the right things fall to the wayside, get put on the back burner or swept under the rug. New truths are not sought for. Heck, even old truths are forgotten or put away, let alone new truths sought (for the majority). I know many who leave or are kicked out of the church and their families for simply questioning the things Joseph Smith lived and taught that we no longer ponder or discuss.

    I still love the good that comes from the church... but I am tiring of all the holier than thou attitude. We have ZERO authority if we have no power from on high. If the Lord does not speak thru us, if truth does not flow from our hearts and mouths, we can claim all the authority from God that we want... it is nothing. If our leaders do not obtain Calling and Election and it made sure... what exactly are they leading us to? To follow them and don't worry about our own C&E either? If they niether go in, are they somehow preventing us from going in? Are we darkened in our own minds, relying on such mortal leaders? Are we simply hopping on their coat tails, just following and listening to them... thinking we'll slide into the celestial kingdom or church of the firstborn with them? A religion that does not have us sacrifice or teach us enough... is not enough. If we are not teaching the principles necessary for turning these people into gods in this life and the next... is it enough?

    to be cont...

  9. Great post mj!

    I am the anonymous above. Yes, it's true, we can have hands layed on our heads a thousand times & have the Priesthood conferred upon us & given authority to do things with that Priesthood, yet, until we have earned that Priesthood direct from heaven by our righteousness & keeping our covenants we don't have a drop of power.

  10. Great posts, mj and anonymous. Thanks.


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