"And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them. Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted. Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up."
Why does this mention the "blood of the saints?" What does it mean for their "blood to cry from the ground?" I've discussed this before, speaking of the earth's own spirit.
What does "all" include? Even us? If "they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted" includes us, what does that mean? How could we also be "out of the way?" Is Nephi right? What about Wilford Woodruff's claim that we would never be led astray? Can someone who promises to not lead you astray then lead you astray? How solid a guarantee does any man offer to you?
What does it mean to "have become corrupted?" Can a church be "true" and still be "corrupted?" (D&C 84: 53-58.)
What "pride" can religion impose upon people who believe false traditions? Does your faith make you "proud" to belong? Do you think it makes you better than others? Do you believe you're saved while others will be damned, because they don't share your faith? Does that make you lose sleep at night, and want to cry out to save them--or to relax and enjoy your security?
What does it mean that the faiths are "all out of the way?" Is there only one "way?" If so, how would you recognize the right "way" from the wrong one?
Who are "false teachers" that teach "false doctrine?" Does "false" include omission of important truths? If one teaches truths about Christ, but does not teach you how to return to His presence, is the teacher "false?" What would qualify someone to be "true" and teach the right "way?" How would you distinguish between true and false teachers? Between true and false doctrine?
How can "false teachers" corrupt a church? Can they corrupt any church? Even ours?
Why does becoming "puffed up" and "pride" follow false teachings? What is it about false religion that brings pride to its followers? How does false security caused by corrupt doctrine lead to "pride?"
Why does becoming "puffed up" and "pride" follow false teachings? What is it about false religion that brings pride to its followers? How does false security caused by corrupt doctrine lead to "pride?"
What would the opposite religious attitude be for "pride?" Would humility, a broken heart and a contrite spirit be different than "pride?" What kind of teaching would cause a listener to become contrite, humble, meek and submissive? What kind of teaching would defeat pride and break a person's heart? Can you have both? Can you be "humble" and "broken hearted" and also be proud of your religion? If you cannot, then can you think deeply about your faith, your meetings, your conferences, your private as well as public conversations and ask yourself if the teachers to whom you listen lead you to pride? Lead you to humility? Lead you to contrition and repentance?
Who is Nephi describing? Is it possible it could apply to us along with all other organized faiths?
I have often heard my fellow-Saint speak of the sense of pride the Conference Center gives them. It is a great, spacious and technologically advanced center. I've thought the ceiling of that building looks somewhat like that very successful evangelist Joel Osteen's amazing church. I've wondered if the architectural firm took hints from other successful mega-churches when designing the Conference Center. Have you noticed how the dimmed lights and the magnified images, magnified voices and focus upon the great pulpit is designed to use all the modern audio-visual technology to create heroic images within the building for the audience? It is a technical marvel. Really state of the art. It is hard for me not to take some pride in it all. Anyone who wonders if our church is respectable, successful, powerful or advanced, who visits the facility will no doubt leave with the conclusion that, despite our humble origins, we certainly have made a success in the world for ourselves. It is a story of overcoming and prospering.
If those whose bloodstained footprints covered our westward migration could see what we've become, I wonder what delight (or disappointment) they would feel. Would they have any mixed emotions at seeing this monument in granite, glass, brass and walnut? The third-of-a-billion dollars we spent on it produced a landmark of splendor for the ages. Poor Joseph had only an open air bowery to use. Adam, too, used the open plains of Adam-Ondi-Ahman to meet. We are, of course, blessed with more resources to use as part of our "worship."
That is a tricky post D. Insomuch as the Saints do not reset their priorities keeping Charity and Humility as their foremost attributes; it is ok to incorporate man's technological advances to facilitate the Gospel.
ReplyDeleteRemember Brigham sent LDS artists to Europe to help incorporate some of European art and architecture into the SLC Temple-if I remember correctly.
As for the sin of Pride, and members having it, so many of us are or have been guilty. It's a process HF allows a lot of us to go thru I believe.
On my mission in Detroit in 1982, I remember teaching a lovely Southern Lady named Mildred Davis. I was what you would consider a "knowledgeable" Elder. I was from Los Angeles, well read and confident. Several times Mildred would stop me during the discussions and say, "Now Elder 'Los Angeles' altho you have a wonderful knowledge of the Scriptures, you needn't be so puffed up in your presentations". I more or less ignored this sweet lady's advice. She would never commit to baptism, and I was later transferred.
In my next area I trained a greenie before going home, who was pretty much a country bumpkin. I struggled w him but he had a humble spirit and was pure. I left for home after training him. He was my last companion.
Later my greenie was transferred to Mildred's area. Mildred loved my greenie. My humble greenie w little knowledge of deep doctrine and clumsy communication skills baptized Mildred.
Pride stifles spiritual growth, but HF allows it so that we smug ones may learn from it.
Denver - my son came home with a print-out of material he pulled up on line pertaining to prophets leading the church astray. Wilford Woodruff's I always questioned because he was defending his Manifesto on plural marriage when John Taylor had so adamantly defended this doctrine during his whole life. I wasn't aware of the following from Brigham Young until a few days ago. It doesn't really change anything for me - too much evidence otherwise, and if you have a response, it would be welcomed.
ReplyDelete"The Lord Almighty leads this Church, and He will never suffer you to be led astray if you are found doing your duty. You may go home and sleep as sweetly as a babe in its mother's arms, as to any danger of your leaders leading you astray, for if they should try to do so the Lord would quickly sweep them from the earth (JD 9:289)
There is the qualifying statement "if you are found doing your duty." As a people we haven't really been "doing our duty" since we failed in Jackson County - at least since 1832 when the Lord condemned the whole church for failing to receive or enter the New Covenant, even the Book of Mormon so that probably answers the questions anyway - We are ALL gone astray and have and are all, save a 'few', failing to keep the New Covenant even the Book of Mormon (DC 84:49-59).
This is really 'serious and self-condemning when it is spelled out so clearly - Thanks for the 'spelling lessons'.
JR
What small words the Lord uses to describe such big ideas.
ReplyDeleteThe "way" is, I believe, a very narrow and exacting gauntlet which leads from where we are now to where the Lord is- and it is the only passageway from here to there which exists.
Nephi describes it, and I hope Denver will elaborate on it.
Denver, please read again pages 281-286 of The Second Comforter. I really enjoy your books but I am getting weary of this blog. Let's continue reaching upward without pulling down those around us.
ReplyDeleteThe key lies in the clause: "if you [as a people] are found doing your duty". Wilford Woodruff probably assumed the best for the people and left the clause out, assuming they were familiar with it, and it ended up in the D&C without the clause.
ReplyDeleteThe question becomes, what if people are not doing their duty? Then the President of the Church is authorized to purposely lead them astray, and turn them over to the buffetings of Satan. We can't fault the leaders for that. We asked for it. That is a scary proposition.
Let us do our duty, as the leaders continually admonish us as a people, and remove the curse as a people so the leaders can begin again to lead us in the true path. They have let off leading us in the strait and narrow path for some time now, it seems, by their own admission (Boyd K. Packer's talks)
Does the phrase, I the Lord am bound WHEN YE DO WHAT I SAY come to mind? Perhaps he doesn't have to remove leaders from their place if we are not doing our duty to merit His protection from being misled. Again, this has nothing to do with the status of the leader, it is all in the people's hands. The leaders can cough up whatever we want and be scott-free from judgment, and still maintain bright personal righteousness, in my opinion. Do we hear this message?
I can teach a lesson in Church and teach it just how it is proscribed, yet not believe one iota of the parts that are way off base. The Spirit will support me in that. What I am presenting is the lesson material, but not always the truth. No one can force me to testify of the bad parts, though, and I hope no one will believe them. They are agents for themselves to choose if it is good or evil. Presidents of the Church can do this, too. Can you blame them? The first thing we committed to do when we entered the Church was receive the Holy Ghost. It's not their fault we can't discern.
Before the correlation department, anybody taught whatever they wanted. Do you think it was all true doctrine then? That was the purpose for creating the correlation department. What should we do if all the false teachers from before the correlation department (or their children) got jobs in the department when it was created? My goodness, people, common sense.
Neal A. Maxwell put it this way: We say we are just following leaders. They say they are just leading followers. The implication is everyone is standing still, or going in circles, and he was talking about us! In that scenario, the followers receive the telestial kingdom. The leaders may still reach celestial if they are following Christ. Who is getting the better part of that deal? Can't we choose just not to participate in the rat race part, and take the "escape hatch" that leaders try to clue us into? ("Don't listen to what I'm saying here, but really listen to this clue..." can be picked up on if you have ears to hear)
Anonymous (7/29/10 2:58pm):
ReplyDeleteYou mean Nephi, right? Because this isn't my subject, it is Nephi's. I'm just laying out what he is talking about. It is quite disturbing to me...
Again, ask yourselves this: how can any righteous General Authority at the top get a true message to the lambs below, if in between there is a wolf ready to devour, a wolf they have no more control over because some at the bottom think the wolf is the top?
ReplyDeleteYes, I believe Nephi was talking about us in this Church too. It seems that, as the scripture says, everyone in the Church, except a rare few, have become decieved & corrupt to do evil.
ReplyDeleteIt is very rare to find someone who really believes in the Gospel that Jesus Christ taught.
To not be decieved, is one of the great tests of Exaltation. And we will surely & easily be decieved if we don't have the Holy Spirit as our guide.
Since it is so easy to be deceived to do evil, & as we see how it seems everyone around us are being decieved to do evil & yet they know it not, should make us even more humble & prayerful & dependent on Heavenly Father to help save us from also being deceived.
It's a daily struggle to discern truth from error & right from wrong & devils from saints, which only the Holy Spirit can help us do successfully.
Thank goodness that if we do find ourselves deceived in sny way, we can always repent. May we never get to a point to think we can't be deceived, or we can be sure we have.
To the poster on July 29, 2010 2:58 PM:
ReplyDeleteI fail to see where Denver has pulled anyone down from anywhere. He and others here are trying to pull us up to a higher standing before God. Keep up the good work Denver... I think it is really important to contemplate and always self evaluate ourselves as compared to the scriptures. Anything that I or our modern org can improve in... should definately be something to ponder and make changes if needed.
To the truth, and bringing back the Kingdom of God in it's proper order and a Royal Priesthood back to the earth,
mj