"For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken."
There will be a time when the accounts will all be settled. Everything will become everlasting and people will either inherit eternal lives and move forward, or they will return to be destroyed both temporally and spiritually again. Joseph Smith commented in the King Follett Discourse about the process of gaining exaltation. He said, "you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave."
Death and hell are the devil's domain. He's the god of that world, and since we have death and suffering here, he calls himself the god of this world. Those who come here are subject to his buffeting, and his will. They are tormented, tempted, troubled, and then they die. While captive here, they endure the insults of the flesh, and the difficulties of trying to find their way back to God.
Those who find Him, however, are able to receive "peace and life eternal" through a higher way. The devil is bound for them, and they are able to be "added upon" by the experiences and difficulties here.
All of this is called a "great and marvelous work" to occur "among the children of men." Note it isn't the "remnant" or the "gentiles" but "the children of men." Why so? Is everyone invited? Why, if everyone is invited, will it largely only affect the "remnant," and the "gentiles," and the "scattered Israel," and "Jews?" What about the "heathen," since they are also "the children of men?" Don't they also have part in the first resurrection? (D&C 45: 54.) Will even some of them be included among the "children of men" who behold this "great and marvelous work?"
Why is it "everlasting" whether it is for "peace and eternal life" or "captivity and destruction?" Isn't "Everlasting" another of God's names just like "Eternal" and "Endless?" (D&C 19: 10-12.) If so, then what does the "everlasting peace and eternal life," and "everlasting captivity and destruction" really involve? [You really need to read that paper I've been emailing out if you haven't read it already.]
Why does God want us to respond to His message and get out of this Telestial Kingdom into another, higher kingdom? Why does He want us to become like Him? How is this experience able to make us more like Him?
If one is involved in the "continuation of the lives" (D&C 132: 22) is that distant and second-hand? Or does God (or the Gods) get involved directly with His/Their children? (Abraham 3: 24-25.)
What causes "hardness of their hearts?" What causes "blindness of their eyes?" Why are those whose hearts are hard unable to receive Christ? Why are those who are blind unwilling to see Him?
This cycle of inviting people to come to the Lamb of God has been going on for some time now. When mankind generally rejected Him after the time of Noah, there was a chosen people who were given a sacred tradition. Ultimately they got proud, failed to recognize Him when He came, rejected His message, and killed Him. Gentiles converted and became the inheritors of His teachings. Then the gentiles began to persecute the previously chosen people for generations. In this verse the gentiles are remembered, sacred materials are entrusted to them with an obligation to spread that sacred material back to the earlier chosen people. However, for the gentiles to be able to accomplish this they need to hold onto the sacred materials and teachings. You simply can't spread abroad what you've failed to retain.
If the gentiles let the sacred materials and teachings fall into disuse, forfeit their priesthood by draining it of any power, and have nothing to offer the previously chosen people, then the gentiles will be cast off, trodden under foot and destroyed, as we have earlier seen.
This verse reminds us what is at stake: Eternity. Or at least God's judgment. It'll be embarrassing to return to Him unimproved and un-added upon. Particularly when His hand was stretched out to us all the day long. Gentiles who do as they are asked are given all the blessings of the chosen people. Those who do not are rejected and destroyed.
As a friend and I discussed last week, Hindu's advise us to get off the wheel and return to God. They may be onto something with that thought. One eternal round, indeed.....
Are you suggesting that everyone will pass through all three kingdoms at some point in their lives? I certainly hope so, that is easy for me to comprehend.
ReplyDeleteAre you also suggesting that progression is "Eternal"? I certainly hope so, that is easy for me to comprehend too.
I have always thought that some take the elevator, while others choose to take the stairs. All will eventually reach the same destination.
His "work and glory" is to bring to pass immortality and eternal life of man. Aren't we all sealed to a loving Father and Mother?
The Prophet Joseph Smith declared-and he never taught more comforting doctrine-that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father's heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.
Aren't we all simply wayward children at some point? Doesn't it stand to reason that the blessing of the Sealing Power applies to the Father that holds the keys to it, that the "tentacles of Divine Providence" will reach out for ALL of His children?
Does this line of reasoning make sense to anyone but me? lol
Very interesting imagery with the wheel. I, for one, have no idea how long I've been on the wheel but feel now it may be long enough. Thank you for allowing the insight. It's somewhat frightening to step off!
ReplyDeleteJM
So can I be my own ancestor?
ReplyDeleteDo we stay within this world or go to others?
When I first read the post today, I thought of Rich Dad Poor Dad's Rat Race. In a nutshell, you stay in the financial rat race buying doodads, going to school, getting good grades, getting a job with benefits and just doing what everyone else does until you get it and buy income producing assets instead. You have to change your way of thinking and doing to get out of the rat race.
To exit our spiritual rat race we must repent (the deeper meaning--changing your mind and perception) and recognize the illusions and wake up.
At least that's how I see it now.
Peter's cryptic list of virtues in ascending order in 2 Peter chapter 1 begs the question of how one is supposed to climb that ladder out of the telestial world. What further complicates the issue is that faith, virtue, knowledge, etc. are impossible to bestow upon oneself. If there is a law irrevocably decreed in heaven upon which all blessings are predicated, one would assume that Peter thought his readers could easily find the list of laws that governed the receipt of the blessings in his list. Can any of you find them? Are they listed in the same order as the blessings?
ReplyDeleteP.S. - I would gather that after having climbed such a ladder, that the view from the top would make all of these ideas about the telestial world become crystal clear, like the view from a mountaintop. Before making the climb, any framework the mind conjures up to fit in these puzzle pieces comprehensibly frequently gets dashed away by the reinforcements this world constantly employs to keep us trapped here in mind and heart.
ReplyDeleteHmmmm, so I can see how this can make sense (referring to the multiple mortalities). We are tried, we fail, we are thrust to hell.
ReplyDeleteWhat is hell? The Telestial Kingdom right? Where are we now? The Telestial Kingdom! But before I come back for the "next round," I will have to pay for my sins, right? It would be "cheating" to get back on the (not so?) merry-go-ROUND without being clean first. All children are born pure.
My question is the same as The Mursets: if the next "round" for me (or anyone) can be on this earth, or do we wait another billion or so years for the next earth to take off?
You know Denver, once I've gotten past the initial shock of being told nearly everyday that me, the Brethren, and everyone I know is likely going to be trodden under, just before we go to hell--this message of becoming a child of Christ "today" is delicious banquet:) Thank You!
ReplyDeleteIs it normal to seemingly taste it one day, as if you could reach out and touch it, and then feel more distant than ever the next day as you face even greater challenges? I've been striving for this for 30 years. Sometimes it feels like I'm starting all over again, and other times I feel great assurances.
Hi JDS, I hope Denver gives you his perspective to your question. If you can find my comments about repentance in a dialogue in the midst of two chapters back in Denver's posts, it might be relevant. It's nice to have a friend help you ask those two questions when a whopper of a trial knocks you off your feet. Also read Denver's "Come, Let Us Adore Him" about how the Savior dealt with the Atonement. He knew the process for working back to peace with His Father, only He had to consider what other people's roots were to the consequences of sin, suffering them vicariously. He truly was the Prince of Peace.
ReplyDeleteAnother consideration: we have sinned in the past and may not have thought we needed to repent. The devil cashes in on the penalties we owe him at very inconvenient times, sometimes years later. The Lord promises to be there with you to help restore your peace, but He will allow you to suffer the consequences until you have the light and knowledge to understand what you did wrong long ago. When you understand all the laws consistently (as the Egyptians put it, having been true and faithful thousands of millions of times), that process won't be necessary anymore. Satan can be cast off for good. Don't let the thousands of millions of times feel daunting - just think of that as how frequently we have a chance daily to react lawfully or sin. Once we feel a principle lived to the point of saturation, all other old sins can be washed away, in my opinion.
Denver:
ReplyDeleteI don't know of any other way of contacting you - While reading about the idea of Native American Indians - the remnant - being the people to build the New Jerusalem, etc. and being the legitimate heirs of the North and South American Continents - [Joseph identified the redemption of Zion as including both North and South America] I stumbled across a 'site' with an Inca Prophecy that I found interesting. I am going to give the site here -
While working through another book on Native American Spiritual practices and beliefs - I realized how narrow my thinking is on this subject and began wondering how Christ 'thinks' on this - what His perspective of this is and if I want to be included I need to find out. The site is as follows: http://www.labyrinthina.com/prophecy.htm Hope this will pull up. Would appreciate your insights on this.
J.
A member of our Stake Presidency here in Texas remarked to me that during his interview with Boyd Packer he was offered the chance to ask any gospel-related question he wanted.
ReplyDeleteHe asked, "Is there progression from one kingdom to another after death?"
Boyd responded, "If I told you the answer was yes -- would it change the way you live?"
He answered, "Well, yeah."
Boyd told him, "Then you are not ready for the answer."
Take that for what it's worth in regards to the laddar-climbing.
Thanks All; very helpful comments.
ReplyDeleteBefore posting my prior comment on this Blog two thoughts had persisted in me--one humorous, and the other sobering. The first was that I could imagine that Denver had written part of the script in the movie Hildalgo when Thompson says to his horse, "Once you get past the head, these grasshoppers go down pretty smooth." The repentance side of Denver's message is shocking to say the least, as He brings it home to those of us who are so "special" (not); however the rest of Denver's message represents the sum total, purpose, and true aim for the Law of the Gospel. Without a hope for entering Christ's presence in this life, what is faith, repentance, baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost for. Without taking up our abode with Christ, how can we possibly receive sufficient grace to become a part of God's family?
The second thought:
A process is laid out in the first 100+ pages of the Second Comforter, that uses Nephi as an example of how to enter Christ's presence. Denver, will you consider sharing your understanding regarding King Lamoni and his redemption, which seemed to follow a different process. I have been struggling to better understand these two extremes. They must both be very important to have been included in the Book of Mormon
It seems Lamoni and his entire household were given a gift by Christ that offers unique hope, similar to Alma's experience. Why does the process seem long and drawn out in some instances and immediate in other instances? Is part of our blindness that we make the receiving of this gift too hard? Given that redemption is a gift and an act of grace anyway, do we make it too hard, or is it just very hard to receive?
Last question: Eternal Burnings sounds scary rather than appealing. Will you elaborate?
PART I
ReplyDeleteJDS,
I've also been pondering about the differences in conversions... how some seem to struggle their whole lives and others are comparatively instantaneous. You used the story of Ammon and King Lamoni as an example. I thought I would look into the similarities of Ammon's (and Alma the Younger’s) conversion with Lamoni's and see what it could teach me.
Ammon, with his brothers and Alma, were numbered among the "unbelievers" (dwindled in unbelief) and became "a great hinderment" (stumbling block?) to the prosperity of the church of God (Church of the Firstborn?). He, with Alma was idolatrous (idols come from false tradition), a man of many words (philosophies of men?) and did speak much flattery ("All is well in Zion and chances are you'll be exalted..."). He led many (priestcraft?) to do after the manner of his iniquities (false prophets?), and gave a chance for the "enemy of God to exercise his power over them."
As they were leading the people astray, an "angel of the Lord APPEARED" unto them "in a CLOUD" (interestingly, the internet is often referred to as a "cloud"). The angel spoke with a voice of thunder, causing the earth to shake (showed great POWER). The angel went on to say that Alma, the elder, had prayed with much FAITH (what is faith in the B of M?) they that might be brought to the KNOWLEDGE (what is knowledge in the B of M?) of the truth. The angel told him not to seek to destroy the church, lest he be CAST OFF (trodden under?).
When they realized the truth the angel had spoken, and the error of their ways, they were ASTONISHED. So much so that Alma became literally dumb-founded. When he awoke, Alma had repented and been born again.
It doesn't say how long a time period elapsed before Ammon went on his mission to the Lamanites, but we know that he confirmed his faith, and exhorted others with much long-suffering and travail to keep the commandments of God. They became zealous instruments in the hands of God, bringing many to the KNOWLEDGE of the truth (their Redeemer). They searched the scriptures diligently, that they might KNOW the "word of God." There was much prayer and fasting, and as a result, they had the spirit of prophecy and revelation, and taught with the authority AND power of God.
PART 2
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't say how long a time period elapsed before Ammon went on his mission to the Lamanites, but we know that he confirmed his faith, and exhorted others with much long-suffering and travail to keep the commandments of God. They became zealous instruments in the hands of God, bringing many to the KNOWLEDGE of the truth (their Redeemer). They searched the scriptures diligently, that they might KNOW the "word of God." There was much prayer and fasting, and as a result, they had the spirit of prophecy and revelation, and taught with the authority AND power of God.
___________________________
King Lamoni and his people had incorrect, base traditions which they followed. They also were wild, hardened and ferocious, and their hearts were set upon riches (gold, silver, precious stones) and seemed to not want to labor to obtain their sustenance. They were indolent and worshiped idols, and the curse of God had fallen upon them because of the traditions of their fathers.
However, the promises of the Lord were extended to them on the conditions of repentance (just as they are to the Remnant and Gentiles). It seems that Lamoni immediately recognized the power of Ammon (wasn't blinded). So much so that offered his daughter as a wife to Ammon.
Lamoni, too was ASTONISHED at the power he had seen in Ammon. Upon meeting with the king, Ammon noticed his countenance had changed (broken heart and contrite spirit?) He was ready to be taught. The king immediately BELIEVED (what is belief in the B of M?) all of Ammon's words and cried to the Lord for mercy, at which time, just like Alma, he collapsed from lack of strength (or power?), to be born again. What was going on? The dark veil of unbelief was being cast away from his mind. The light of everlasting life had "lit up" in his soul and this had overcome his natural FRAME (or vessel or temple?) Lamoni's wife, too, based only on the word of Ammon believed all of his words. After 3 days, Lamoni arose, born again. The first person he addressed was his wife, saying "Blessed be the name of God, and blessed art thou." Lamoni and his wife then go on to become a great instrument in God’s hands, converting many of his people.
So as I compare the two conversions, I see some similarities between Lamoni and Ammon/Alma
• They were both hindered with idolatry and unbelief
• A true messenger came to them
• The true messenger demonstrated his power
• They were both astonished at the power
• They both lost strength
• During the time of losing strength, the veil of unbelief was lifted
• Having repented, they arose born again
Anyway, this post is getting long. I’m not even sure that it was enlightening to anyone. But I enjoyed the exercise and learned a lot about being born again. Thanks, JDS, for bringing up the question.
Doug
PART 3
ReplyDeleteLamoni, too was ASTONISHED at the power he had seen in Ammon. Upon meeting with the king, Ammon noticed his countenance had changed (broken heart and contrite spirit?) He was ready to be taught. The king immediately BELIEVED (what is belief in the B of M?) all of Ammon's words and cried to the Lord for mercy, at which time, just like Alma, he collapsed from lack of strength (or power?), to be born again. What was going on? The dark veil of unbelief was being cast away from his mind. The light of everlasting life had "lit up" in his soul and this had overcome his natural FRAME (or vessel or temple?) Lamoni's wife, too, based only on the word of Ammon believed all of his words. After 3 days, Lamoni arose, born again. The first person he addressed was his wife, saying "Blessed be the name of God, and blessed art thou." Lamoni and his wife then go on to become a great instrument in God’s hands, converting many of his people.
So as I compare the two conversions, I see some similarities between Lamoni and Ammon/Alma
• They were both hindered with idolatry and unbelief
• A true messenger came to them
• The true messenger demonstrated his power
• They were both astonished at the power
• They both lost strength
• During the time of losing strength, the veil of unbelief was lifted
• Having repented, they arose born again
Anyway, this post is getting long. I’m not even sure that it was enlightening to anyone. But I enjoyed the exercise and learned a lot about being born again. Thanks, JDS, for bringing up the question.
Doug
Doug, great posts. I think what has happened to you is the same that happened to Saul, King of Israel. Samuel took him to a group of prophets (notice there was more than just Samuel, they were all friends here). They followed the pattern you described above, and Saul received a new heart, and prophesied himself. The angels do this in the scriptures...they unveil a principle until the student catches sight of it in their mind's eye. The student then has the same vision and it is courtesy for them to continue the prophesy of the angel by prophesying themselves. Look in the scriptures for angelic / godly commands such as "Son of Man, prophesy!" We expect angels to tell us everything themselves, when they usually can only assist us in self-teaching through getting the vision ourselves.
ReplyDeleteRemember what happened to Saul afterwards, though, and don't follow his example. Press on and be diligent.
Thanks Doug, Zane, all; was Lamoni born again only as the dark veil of unbelief was rent from him, or did more happen; and, was he actually redeemed? We know that the dark veil of unbelief was cast away and that the light that lit his mind was the light and glory of God (his blindness was removed) and he experienced God's unspeakable goodness. He declares to his wife that he has seen his Redeemer. Of course he does not declare that he is redeemed or if an angel showed him Christ, or if he met Christ in person through the veil, but Lamoni saw his redeemer. His wife later proclaims that she has been saved by Christ and expresses her joy in words that are not understood. Many of the servants proclaim they have talked with angels who taught them of God and of righteousness.
ReplyDeleteFinally, the work of the Lord commenced among the Lamanites as many shared their testimony with others.
I'm still wondering if Lamoni and his wife were redeemed during this experience or born again only, and if so, was their redemption based entirely upon their belief and willingness to forsake sins, or if those qualifications led only to the possibility of being redeemed and their entering into the redemptive process--as discussed in the first 100+ pages of the Second Comforter?
I'm not really looking for a shortcut, but too often in life I make things harder than they need to be. I worked 15 hours a day in my youth. Everything was about work, work, work. I've wondered if my worker mentality has blinded me to believe redemption must be a long drawn-out struggle, or if Lamoni's story also teaches that this gift does not necessarily always come through the long and hard method. Denver spoke of our blindness; I want to improve my belief and the way I see things. I'm not sure I see this one clearly yet.
I appreciate the thoughts.
Hi JDS,
ReplyDeleteNow you're probably getting to the good part. I can only relate from my experience, but see if this helps: You are likely approaching some aspect of the record that will have deep personal implications - something that goes beyond the written word, but of what was contained in hearts and minds. If you can't see it yet, there may be one or two more stumbling blocks impedeing the sight, but you're getting close. We likely can't answer it satisfactorily for you, but the Lord can help you reveal things which have never been revealed, and make you a seer of it yourself. Retain the hope for the answer to the specific scenario, but look all around you for lessons, even if they seem unrelated. Try to work out other issues as the Lord presents them. Ask yourself what bothers you about the implications your mind comes up with about the story, then repent as you can. Then and only then will you be ready to understand if your ideas were right or wrong, or if the solution was something entirely different. The Lord will wait until the part that bothers you is resolved, even if that "part" is not even a correct interpretation. He wants to utilize even a false interpretation to help you repent further if it brings up a problem in your heart. Let Him have His way, and He won't let you down for the final solution when the time is right.
JDS - Your last paragraph really spoke to me. In the past, I have imagined that the process is all about working hard to overcome and repent of sins. That coming to receive these things involves a sort of checklist that when completed will result in the realization of the blessing.
ReplyDeleteHowever, just recently I have noticed a thought bouncing around in my head that perhaps, rather than a checklist, the idea is to experience a paradigm shift - where everything changes suddenly and our behavior is modified by our newfound knowledge.
This is not to say that there isn't work involved. We must perform a certain amount of work in order to cast off those things that are holding us back. But, it seems now to me that the catalyst for change is a shift in our thoughts and perspective - a paragigm shift.
That would explain why some work and work and never seem to attain, while others can seemingly receive the blessing suddenly.
It would also give insight to the concepts of belief and opening our eyes. These aren't things we physically do (work), these are things that happen in our heads (a shift in our thoughts/perspective/paradigm).