"And after it had come forth unto them I beheld other books, which came forth by the power of the Lamb, from the Gentiles unto them, unto the convincing of the Gentiles and the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the Jews who were scattered upon all the face of the earth, that the records of the prophets and of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are true."
We know the New Testament will come forth first and get into the hands of the "remnant" of the promised people. It will get into their hands BEFORE some other materials will also come forth.
When did that happen? Was it something that occurred before the publication of the Book of Mormon in 1830? Which native tribes received copies of the New Testament before the "other books" came forward? What are these "other books" referred to here? They "came forth by the power of the Lamb" but came "after" the New Testament was given to the "remnant." What books have come forth "by the power of the Lamb" to your knowledge? Apart from the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Book of Moses, Book of Abraham and Joseph Smith History and Matthew, what other books would qualify? Did all these come after the "remnant" had first received the New Testament "book of the Lamb of God?"
The effect of the "other books" will be to "convince" the gentiles as well as "the remnant of the seed of my brethren" of the truth of the New Testament and "records of the prophets." Have the gentiles become convinced? Have the "remnant" become convinced? Have the Jews who were scattered upon all the face of the earth become convinced? Are they convinced of the truth of "the records of the prophets" even if they are not yet convinced of the truth of the "twelve apostles of the Lamb?"
Is this a serial progression? That is, does it come and convince the gentiles first? Then, having convinced them, does it next convince the "remnant?" Then, after having convinced both the gentiles and the "remnant," does it in turn convince the scattered Jews? If serial, what stage of the unfolding of these events is happening now? What is needed before the phase would be completed and the next one begin?
What does it mean that "other books" will come forth? What kinds of "books" would they be? Who would have written them? Why would they come "by the power of the Lamb" only to meet the criteria? Is a good commentary written by CES among the promised "books" coming forward? What about the Ensign?
How would you be able to recognize a book coming "by the power of the Lamb" in fulfillment of this promise? Will these "books" be recognized as scripture? Do they include discoveries at Qumran and Nag Hammadi? Was Hugh Nibley working on such projects, and if so, was he among those in whom the "power of the Lamb" was working?
This verse has potential for broad application. It raises questions worth contemplating and may surprise you at some of the issues it requires us to confront. Such are the Lord's dealings with mankind in every generation. We are made prayerful because He gives us great subjects with which to grapple.
When I type in "De" in order to get google to prompt me with your blog site ("De" as in Denver Snuffer), about half the time it sends me instead to Deseret Book. Just thought you should know how long their tentacles have grown.ReplyDelete
Do you plan to pursue the 'other books' or open an opportunity to discuss them at all in this blog?ReplyDelete
I think there are several types of books and knowledge that will come forth. Some blend with each other. Here is my list, not in order of importance...ReplyDelete
1. The "Dead Sea Scrolls/Book of Enoch" type that are not OFFICIAL doctrine but have much truth.
2. Books like Denvers, John Pontius, James Custer, Hugh Nibley...
3.The rest of the book of Mormon. The plain and precious truths that were held back so we could be tried, as Nephi and many said.
4. Other witnesses from "other sheep not of this fold, or of the fold of Jersalem" them also HE asked to write, and some will come forth to make things more plain.
Every Book or Script brought forth by the Lord adds further light to what has already been revealed. Anything that will come will both confirm the previous and lend greater light and Knowledge.
I feel the challenge is to live what we already have and to ask for more as directed by the Spirit. I know I hunger and thirst after righteounness and after further light, because True Doctrine and LIght is what is changing my Natural man and restoring me to who I am.
Denver, Thanks again for this study. And thank all of you for your comments, as it lends greater depth to my testimony.
About a year ago my Indian brother came to Utah Valley to perform a concert. He is a grammy winner who specializes playing the Indian Flute. He rehearsed in preparation for a concert with local musicians. These musicians were quite taken back when Indian spirits showed up in their full regalia to watch the musicians rehearse. Joe said, "Sometimes they can be a real nuisance; they are like kids who always want the best seat in the house whenever we play traditional Indian music."ReplyDelete
One of the Osmonds was the drummer for the event and had to lay down on the floor for awhile to recover because he hadn't ever experienced anything of this nature before. He ask Joe if this sort of thing happened often. Joe said, "Almost every time we play!" Later that evening he shared many spiritual experiences he has had that causes me to believe that the Savior visits anyone or any group of people who will receive Him.
I would be interested to know what other books Denver has in mind. Certainly the LDS population is not the only population to receive visitations and instructions that have been recorded.
So if there are other books which have or could still come forth by the power of the Lamb of God, there might be more going on out there than just what LDS's are doing and writing -- ?ReplyDelete
D&C 10: 62
62 Yea, and I will also bring to light my gospel which was ministered unto them [Book of Mormon people], and, behold, they shall not deny that which you have received, but they shall build it up, and shall bring to light the true points of my doctrine, yea, and the only doctrine which is in me.
You might ask yourself, "Who in the heck is the Lord talking about here who 'won't deny that which you [Joseph Smith and the Gentiles] have received, but THEY shall build it up, and SHALL BRING TO LIGHT THE TRUE POINTS OF MY DOCTRINE, ...' ?"
Apparently, someone out there -- the Remnant? -- knows true points that we don't understand. Who are these people and how can they be knowing stuff we don't know?
53 And for this cause have I said: If this generation harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them.
54 Now I do not say this to destroy my church, but I say this to build up my church;
55 Therefore, whosoever belongeth to my church need not fear, for such shall inherit the kingdom of heaven.
What? It sounds like the Lord has more churches than just the church He established with the Gentiles (us). And He doesn't want the people in His first church to be afraid because He's not doing this with the Gentiles to destroy the church they already have. Bizarre.
I really don't know how to answer your question Denver.... the Book of Enoch has been important to me.ReplyDelete
I keep a copy (RH Charles translation) on my night stand. I have had it since the 1970's. I feel like I've learned a great deal from it. I also found a little different version back in the 80's hiding in the Princeton University bookstore. The Book of Enoch has had a profound effect on this gentile.
I have similar feelings about the Nag Hammadi library.
"The Egyptian Book of the Dead" has been a wonderful source too.
"The Great Isaiah Scroll" from Qumran is amazing... I believe the "Ascension of Isaiah" has truth in it... and the "Ascension of Abraham."
The Popul Vuh has some interesting material... as well as the Dresden Codex of the Maya.
Like ofthers, I look forward to the sealed 2/3's of the Book of Mormon.
THANK all of you for your comments. I don't know where Snuffer will go with this, but I have recently been 'led in an unusual manner' to several of these Apocryphal works which contain a great clarity of thought and doctrine which definitely 'builds' upon that which Joseph restored and fits very well with what Kisi has found in DC 10 - I am excited to find others who are being drawn to these great truths. I do know the Lord will work with anyone who is willing to receive Him - I have had a very strong witness of this of late - and the witnesses - and there have been several - are in no way connected with the LDS Church. HE IS TRULY NO RESPECTER of PERSONS.ReplyDelete
I think a key to that and to JDS's Grammy brother is D&C 10:67
“Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.”
When my brother pointed that scripture out to me a few years ago I marveled that I had never seen it, never heard about it, never been taught anything like that.
Sorry, Kisi, I should have read the posts in order. You hit the nail on the head.ReplyDelete
Wanted to highlight another of your point's I liked JDS: "attraction rather than force" is right, and attraction is always better than force, which is Satan's main tool. I guess I can let the Savior's words speak better for me to prove that what I am trying to lay out in my comments is the use of persuasive attraction and not force, if anyone ever questioned that (JDS and I come from the same basic foundation with these essentials about the use of example and attraction, but I am trying to support an aspect of the Savior that people have a hard time seeing how He is in harmony with those foundational principles when He acts a certain way)...ReplyDelete
JST Matt. 7: 1-2 Now these are the words which Jesus taught his disciples that they should say unto the people...
That one Joseph Smith translation brings more clarity to Matthew chapter 7 and that section of Jesus' law than any other, in my opinion. For those who are true disciples of Jesus Christ, they will hear the Master's voice in that chapter if they read it with all of the JST's in the footnotes and in the back after the Bible Dictionary inserted. That section should never be perverted to justify the use of force, or rampant calling to repentance that JDS shuns in his above post. Those perversions are obviously wrong. I'm glad JDS has been pointing that out.
If anyone wants to know why Jesus called people children of Satan, hypocrites, and used seemingly forceful language, yet never could be charged with forcing anyone, and how and when He expects His disciples to do the same, with love, then read that chapter the way I described with all JST's. This supplements going about doing good...the main example bearing witness that should be established firmly first in the life of a disciple, yet this chapter finishes and rounds off the full use of tools the Savior intends His disciples to have at their disposal to heal people and help when they desire help.
That chapter is NOT an exclusive description for the category of preaching that includes sharpness and reminding others of the duration of eternity, or reproving when moved upon by the Holy Ghost. Those categories are exceptions to the example scenario JDS outlined, and not the sole mode described by the Savior in this precept example in Matthew chapter 7. It is an error to confuse Matt chapter 7 as strictly referring to sharpness in speech. Jesus is talking about normal discourse and persuasion with love.
Even still, I'd be hesitant to call the Holy Ghost's prompting to use the rare form of sharpness as force, or presume someone using sharpness is doing anything other than being obedient to the correct spirit. It is better to look inward and repent, and is likely the reason Denver allowed the one Anonymous person's comment calling him to repentance to be posted, even if it was misguided. (cont...)
Which brings me to my last point. I believe that call to repentance to Denver was misguided, because I believe Denver showed a good example of what the Savior commanded His disciples to do in normal discourse, all be it the sharpness exception was used. And the sharpness was necessary because it seems painfully obvious this correlation department is not only in gross error generally, but militant to the point of destroying faith and seeking out victims to harass if they depart from their anti-Christ exclusion of revelatory power agenda. The innocent people need to be protected, as true righteous Priesthood holders have been given the task to use the sword of justice to defend the innocent when they are being harassed. That is an example of the exception to the gentle hypocrite suggestions Jesus advanced. That is when the hypocrite suggestion becomes more than gentle, but fierce with sharpness. There are the two instances possible, and use of the hypocrite doctrine can't be assumed to be the use of sharpness every time it is used.ReplyDelete
The most dominant form of culture in the world is to protect one's honor when perceived or real injustices challenge their integrity. That is the reason for the Savior commanding His disciples to teach the first concept: Tell the people, "Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged: but judge righteous judgment." That is to prepare them for the next concept they are commanded to teach (notice these are their missionary discussions), which is the famous mote and beam parable. I don't have room to go into that, read it for yourselves. That is what I've been calling the hypocrite doctrine, or hypocrite tool the disciples are to give their investigators. Cultures of honor balk when it is suggested they are hypocrites, assuming it is an inflammatory insult. In order to accept the Savior's mode of teaching, and His love, they have to accept that He will suggest they are hypocrites every time the need arises, with no insult intended. Disciples willingly covenant to accept this rigorous discipline. Not many have seen it done in the uplifting and assisting way the Savior does it. Seen correctly, people would flock to the discipleship, but there is too much prejudice against it. I am not a perfect example of its use, but I labor to dispel the prejudices towards it. Pray about it and see if I am right. You don't have to take my word for it! I wish everyone could get this testimony of Jesus' discipleship. It would also help them in moving along with Denver's blog posts. Just remember, it is a learned prejudice that is almost universal. Don't be surprised if you don't believe me, but don't miss out on the opportunity to ask and have a change of heart if He wants you to.
This morning I came across a scripture that ties what we are presently discussing with some things we have discussed in the past (forgive me for re-listing scriptures I have listed in past comments).ReplyDelete
Notice that Jacob is speaking (and his descendants/seed are "Jacobites" who have been numbered with the Nephites, Josephites, and Zoramites):
2 Nephi 9: 53
And behold how great the covenants of the Lord, and how great his condescensions unto the children of men; and because of his greatness, and his grace and mercy, he has promised unto us that OUR SEED shall not utterly be destroyed, according to the flesh, but that he would preserve them; and in future generations THEY SHALL BECOME A RIGHTEOUS BRANCH unto the house of Israel.
Now re-read 4 Nephi 36-37; D&C 3: 16-20; D&C 49: 8; and D&C 86: 8-11.
Then just for your own edification and amazement at how what Denver is pointing us to is EVERY-FLIPPIN'-WHERE in the Book of Mormon, read
2 Nephi 9: 41-42, 50-52.
P.S. - The very last interchange in Matthew 7 has the Savior telling the disciples how to respond when sharing the literalness of the promises of revelations and visitations from Deity that it implies was the main message they were sharing. You will see that Denver's message is not new! You will also see that the reaction was anticipated for the Jews in Jesus' day ("They will say Moses spoke with God, and He doesn't with us"), which is a common reaction amongst Church members now. This last section will tell you how you can help others when confronted with such skepticism amongst your peers at Church if you are confronted about your beliefs in this regard. His responses are not intended to always be shared word for word - they are principles embedded in case examples. I am not suggesting you go out and share any message and be disciples of Denver or anything, but don't be surprised if some may attack you simply because you look happier, or a comment of yours betrays your new found hopes in understanding the scriptures better! Remember, Sherem sought out Jacob to fight him, even though in that instance he had a commission to teach these things. The Savior's example here helps you diffuse such a situation so you don't end up reviling against those that revile - and they will revile for almost nothing, believe me.ReplyDelete
(That is some will revile, not all. Some won't know what to do with you. You may not know what to do with yourself for joy! If you know you're approved of God, what does it matter? No-one can separate you from that.)ReplyDelete