"In these days there are many holistic healing arts that area coming forward. EFT (tapping), angel therapy and readings, chakra work, Reiki, aura work, energy work, etc., etc. Are these gifts of the spirit? Are they gifts of the "right" spirit:) When someone is working with you on correcting old belief systems from childhood and they say they had a dream that might be relevant, should you trust that.? What do you feel about people who do angel readings? How can you discern so as not to be deceived or lead down an incorrect path. Many people who do this kind of work are not LDS...are they entitled to gifts of the spirit? Sometimes I have seen LDS people get involved with these modalities and leave the church or become inactive....others remain very faithful. I sometimes feel that people should be able to go to the source of all healing directly... Christ.... and bypass these types of healings. But then again, sometimes I think perhaps people need these modalities to help remove blocks of low self-worth and self condemnation that block them from going directly to Christ for feelings of unworthiness and believing that Christ can heal them. I remember Jeffery Holland in a conference of the last couple of years say, "Christ can heal you and he can do it now!" (not his exact words). Anyway, I have wondered about this for a long long time. I hope you give me your opinion."
First, as to gifts:
I believe there are "gifts" given (or acquired) by people which are based on real sensitivities or talents. I believe they exist as part of the talents brought into this life. Some people have talent to sing, compose music, or create art. There are those who have developed spiritual gifts. There are many kinds of gifts, but they all come from God. (Moroni 10: 8.)
Possession of a gift, however, does not mean a person will use that gift in conformity with God's will or plan. If a person does not seek to follow the Lord's will, they can be misled and use gifts for improper ends. People who fail to remain obedient, who begin to use their gifts to gratify their pride or to achieve their ambitions can drift away from the light and take others with them. Just because a person possesses a gift does not mean they live their lives in conformity to truth. Nor does it mean they will not mislead you. Proper use of a gift should show gratitude to and promote faith in God. (D&C 20: 27.)
Second, as to modalities:
I do think that there are aids to faith that can help someone who is weak to still act in faith. Modalities that focus thought, bolster confidence and assist in believing the Lord can heal can aid in the process. In the end it is the authority of God and faith in Him that allows good things to follow. It comes from Him. If an act helps focus thought and confidence in Him, then the act is worthwhile.
The problems creep in when the modality is regarded as an independent authority apart from God. As soon as a person begins to view God as uninvolved, or that they can control the outcome independent of God's will, there is an opening for evil or deception. Gifts were not intended to produce a monetary profit and should not be practiced for money. (Acts 8: 20.)
Gifts belong to the body of believers and should be used to promote faith in God. (D&C 46: 10, 26.)
First, as to gifts:
I believe there are "gifts" given (or acquired) by people which are based on real sensitivities or talents. I believe they exist as part of the talents brought into this life. Some people have talent to sing, compose music, or create art. There are those who have developed spiritual gifts. There are many kinds of gifts, but they all come from God. (Moroni 10: 8.)
Possession of a gift, however, does not mean a person will use that gift in conformity with God's will or plan. If a person does not seek to follow the Lord's will, they can be misled and use gifts for improper ends. People who fail to remain obedient, who begin to use their gifts to gratify their pride or to achieve their ambitions can drift away from the light and take others with them. Just because a person possesses a gift does not mean they live their lives in conformity to truth. Nor does it mean they will not mislead you. Proper use of a gift should show gratitude to and promote faith in God. (D&C 20: 27.)
Second, as to modalities:
I do think that there are aids to faith that can help someone who is weak to still act in faith. Modalities that focus thought, bolster confidence and assist in believing the Lord can heal can aid in the process. In the end it is the authority of God and faith in Him that allows good things to follow. It comes from Him. If an act helps focus thought and confidence in Him, then the act is worthwhile.
The problems creep in when the modality is regarded as an independent authority apart from God. As soon as a person begins to view God as uninvolved, or that they can control the outcome independent of God's will, there is an opening for evil or deception. Gifts were not intended to produce a monetary profit and should not be practiced for money. (Acts 8: 20.)
Gifts belong to the body of believers and should be used to promote faith in God. (D&C 46: 10, 26.)
What if their gift is deeply connected to their profession? Take a psychologist who has the gift of discernment. Or an MD with the gift of healing. It would be difficult to disconnect their spiritual gift from their healing practice or profession.
ReplyDeleteIn some cases I see Gods gifts at work but it also is part of how they make a living. In the end it is the authority of God and faith in Him that allows good things to follow and the practitioners recognize this. Is then the presence of money making in their practice incorrect, or leading where it shouldn't?
I don't know how to reconcile these things.
What do you think?
I believe that to be an excellent question Taylor
ReplyDeleteI have been very blessed in my later years to bring to the forefront the gifts of the spirit that H.F. has given me. I have had some very sacred experiences along with my clients, in sessions of facilitating that I have done. I have spent many years and thousands of dollars in learning modalities (the techniques, background, etc) and then have been taught through the spirit how to facilitate my secular learning on a more spiritual plane. I do charge for my services, as I have to make a living. I am good at what I do, only because I seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost, the Lord's spirit and my angels in all that I do. I am not the healer. The Savior is the healer and I make that clear in all my sessions. I feel very strongly that some of these modalities have been given from on high to help facilitate a person to get them, where they can feel worthy and loved to approach the Savior and or HF. I have had a Stake Pres. who would counsel with me every month, to help keep me from going off the "deep end". I never have and I won't, becasue my faith in Jesus Christ and his gospel is a lot stronger than anything else.
ReplyDeleteThe 'to charge or not to charge', for sessions, has always been a major point of discussion. I think it is between the Lord and the facilitator. There are many times when I give it as a gift, because it has been impressed unto my heart to do so. Other times, I have charged my full price, or half price. It has all depended on how I feel directed.
I'm a CranioSacral therapist, which is a licensed modality at least partially, if not largely in the realm of energy work. I "retired" from teaching math when I had my daughter so that I could be a stay-at-home mom. My CST training has taken years of study and practice and has cost me thousands of dollars -- much more than what I ever spent getting a bachelors and masters in math.
ReplyDeleteNevertheless, there are "gifts" involved in performing the work. But then I only went into math in the first place because I had both a gift for understanding it and a separate gift for teaching it. I charge for about half of my CST sessions, as "the laborer is worthy of [her] hire". The other half I do for free because they are friends or too poor or I know they wouldn't get the help they need if I charged them.
I have had many, many experiences where the Spirit came and aided me in working on people, or gave me revelation on how to help them, or told or showed me things that would help me understand what was going on with them. I have been warned by the Spirit to not work on certain people. Angels have come from the other side and talked with the people I was helping during a session.
Understanding all of this is over my head. I only know that Heavenly Father has made it clear to me that He supports me in doing this work and is pleased with my efforts. I know that any of us could become deceived or prideful and get led astray. This is as true for the dogcatcher as it is for me or any other people who work in the energy field. Teachers, landscapers, apostles, and attorneys get led astray. We all need to be in prayer at all times and doing our best to stay close to the Spirit.
A close friend of mine who was in school with me learning CST spent a whole year trying to get someone with the priesthood to tell her in a blessing that it was wrong for her to do this kind of work and that she should quit. In blessing after blessing she was told that this is where the Lord wants her to be.
The Lord doesn't seem to have any problem with my charging for the work. If I were gauging people, just like if you were gauging people, I'm sure He'd have a problem.
On the other hand, I've seen dyslexia greatly improved or healed, back problems healed, emotional padlocks due to abuse unlocked and hearts opened.
We always need to be in prayer and be careful and wise. But to tell you the truth, the possibly scarier thing going on is not that "people are out there do weird energy work using their spiritual gifts and charging for it", it's that we have created a body of people on the earth (namely us, i.e. Latter-day Saints) who are so scared to do anything outside of the "box" -- a box by the way that the Lord never created -- that they are afraid to be open to any truth that seems to be outside of the modern, western-world, white, anglo-saxon, middle-class, main-stream dogma. The Gospel isn't inside of a box. It embraces all truth, and that truth fills the universe.
Continuing with reference to the “Gods gifts were not intended to produce monetary profit and should not be practiced for money. “ part of this post.
ReplyDeleteIsn’t everything any of us have a gift from God? Including the air we breathe, our bodies, our minds etc.
So then any profit producing venture would be using Gods gifts to make money because all of us are acting under or with a God given gift.
Now I’m confused....
p.s. I want to put this part of my comment in a separate thing so that the other won't get axed if this part does!
ReplyDeleteOne of the greatest things that could be the case but for the most part isn't, would be to have large numbers of priesthood holders and women with profound faith in Jesus Christ who also understand a whole body of truth that is in what might be termed "the world of energy". One reason why some energy workers end up leaving the Church is because they get confused by how closed we are to the truth they are learning and experiencing in the world of energy work.
A close friend of mine is an energy worker who has had great truths revealed to him about what makes people "gay". He has helped so many people to be freed from this burden. But he has also had to fight time and again to keep his Church membership because people get upset that he's doing something outside the box. Because of the constant threat of Church condemnation, he never uses the priesthood to help people. How is sad is that? When I look at what he has been able to accomplish through just using other gifts and faith, I wonder what he might have been able to or could still accomplish if he were free to use everything he has.
Of all the people that have persecuted him, I don't think any of them are the family members of formerly gay people he has helped.
Taylor,
ReplyDeleteYou're getting bogged down in the details.
We're commanded to be charitable w our resources, talents and money.
This is where man's agency kicks in..
A righteous person would donate a generous portion of their proceeds to the Church or less forunate..
Another person may start prostituting his or her gifs and become Joel Osteen II or Sylvia Browne's sister..
This isn't that complicated, the Spirit that gave you the Gifts will guide you on what to do w the proceeds of those Gifts..
dbs
This is a difficult topic. There are no easy answers. However, I think there are a couple of variables that need to be scrutinized.
ReplyDeleteFirst, what type of gift is to be used?
* If its channeling (also considered "revelation from on high/the other side" by some members), how does that conform with what Elder Oakes stated ("Whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same") in which he said that "when one person purports to receive revelation for another person outside his or her own stewardship — such as a Church member who claims to have revelation to guide the entire Church or a person who claims to have a revelation to guide another person over whom he or she has no presiding authority according to the order of the Church — you can be sure that such revelations are not from the Lord." (However, If this is a true revelation, it will be confirmed directly to the person if he/she seeks to know).
* If it's healing, and the source of the healing (for example, reiki) does not claim Christ as its foundation, how can it ever be endorsed by Christ?
Second, what is the Lord's will? If it is a type of healing that does not involve channeling and is Christ-focused, I believe it is imperative not only for the recipient of the gift (the faciltator) but also their client to both independently confirm that the usage of that gift is aligned with the Lord's will. Discernment, then, is of critical importance. To automatically assume the usage of a gift is OK with the Lord, when it really isn't, means inviting Satan and his minions to control the situation from then on (because we have chosen Satan's, not God's, will).
Like the Brother of Jared (and as elaborated in D&C 9:7-9), we must do our best to problem solve the situation. We must evaluate our worthiness, and repent if necessary (question: is repentance ever unnecessary?) We must gauge our receptivity to the spirit. We must pay the price by studying the word of God, receiving personal revelation concerning the situation and developing proposed solutions. Then we must take those proposals to the Lord, fully expecting to know which proposal matches His will. Go to the Lord and ask, "Am I selling my [gifts] for money?" Am I receiving [gifts] for money? And, of course, "What is thy opinion of this, my proposed solution?"
The Lord may say:
* Yes, it's OK to go get (or give) the healing, or
* No, it's not OK to get (or give) the healing, or
* The healing will come through another means, like eating healthier food or exercising more. ..or approaching another and saying, "I'm sorry," "I love you," "I forgive you" or "Thank you." Maybe healing will come by interacting with another, whom the Lord is preparing to intervene in the Lord's due time. Perhaps the situation is more complex than those solutions, and requires greater intervention, or
* Nothing at all (either because you are out of tune, or he is fine with whatever direction you choose).
I cannot and will not judge anyone who facilitates or receives such gifts. However, I know (from personal experience) that:
1) Honesty with yourself, and with the Lord, are paramount issues.
2) Should you decide to follow your own will, and not the Lord's...well, see how Joseph felt after he entrusted Martin Harris with the 116 page manuscript.
3) Healing is a very real thing, a real gift, to be done in the Lord's way and on his terms.
EC
Denver,
ReplyDeleteI am the one who asked the original question. I just wanted to say thank you for your response. I was pondering your response today and actually received quiet thoughts that entered my mind that further clarified my question. I was excited because I have always been one of those "God answers others, but not me", people.
I also want to say thank you for your little journal excerpts that introduced the chapters in "The Second Comforter"....for now, especially the one at the beginning of Chapter 4. I have reflected on it often and found myself asking questions and paying more attention to my thoughts (especially in the quiet hours of the morning) and the reponses that could have easily been mistaken for my own...
In those quiet hours, I had the impression to stop working so much. Although working has been helpful financially, it isn't essential for me. So, I am doing as I felt directed to do and cutting way back. I want my faith to grow. I am tired of depending on others and not having the confidence that I can really get my own answers. Depending on others doesn't bring a feeling of peace and calm....only more questions. Thank you for your example and that which you have shared in your books and this blog. It has given me hope, courage and confidence that I really can get answers. I am beginning on the path. It feels good. My sincere, heartfelt gratitude goes to you for being willing to share a tremendous amount of time to instruct others, and heartfelt gratitude to the Lord for commissioning you to share what He directs. Thank You.
Kathy
Kisi,
ReplyDeleteI have always been interested in cranial sacral....is there any way to get ahold of you to see if you are in my area?
Kathy: I wish all people would use the material exactly like you are. That is the whole reason for this work. It is not to call attention to me, but to let others develop themselves.
ReplyDeleteI am a private person. This work I'm doing is NOT easy for me. It invades space I never would voluntarily surrender. If I were not doing this to benefit others I simply would never undertake it at all.
Anonymous -- I'm in Provo. You can email me if you want: kwatki2@gmail.com
ReplyDeletedbs:
ReplyDeleteFor me it's not so much what to do with the proceeds. My dilemma was sorting through a God given gift and it's utilization in money making.
For some reason the details strike me as important. I'm still pondering and sorting, and it's getting more clear. Kathy got an answer, I'm hopeful as well. Glad the question got asked, its prompted some good things for me.
I personally think this is an important issue.
Taylor,
ReplyDeleteEh, I don't want to split hairs here but I think if a person w divine Gifts donates the majority of their proceeds to worthy charities, if they actually charge nominal fees, that HF wouldn't deny them access or entrance into the Celestial Kingdom. Not only that Christ would probably be on their right hand side vouching for them.
dbs
dbs:
ReplyDeleteNah, it's all good, no hairs were split. I apologize if I suggested something about your view of the subject. I didn't mean to.
I was really just working through something that for me personally I wanted to explore more.
In any event, appreciate the feedback.
Hi everyone, I have a further comment about this and the money. Until recently I was stuck in some notion that Zion is a cashless society and that somehow we need to get away from money. But I don't think that's it anymore. There might or there might not be money or some medium of exchange in Zion. It really doesn't matter. The point is to have all things common among us -- to love those around us as much as we love ourselves and our own family. Parents will typically sacrifice everything if needed for their children. When we are willing to do that for others around us who aren't our children or even our family, then that is true charity.
ReplyDelete2 Nephi 26: 30-31
30 Behold, the Lord hath forbidden this thing; wherefore, the Lord God hath given a commandment that all men should have charity, which charity is love. And except they should have charity they were nothing. Wherefore, if they should have charity they would not suffer the laborer in Zion to perish.
31 But the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish.
I believe it's all a matter of the heart. You can make money to live on without laboring "for money". In fact, you can actually labor for money in a Zion sense and have it be wonderful:
Jacob 2: 18-19
18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.
19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.
I think its about just being at all times in a state of openness and charity to do with money and whatever else we have, including gifts, whatever He would have us do.
I myself do not believe that most of these new modalities & energy work philosophies are from the Lord, but rather, are the ideas & precepts of men, even if such things are mingled with some truth so they have a partial effect.
ReplyDeleteThat some therapies do seem to help in many instances does not mean they are from the Lord. There are many uninspired or even many evil things today, that bring people alot of comfort & temporary relief from their problems, pain, guilt & burdens of life, that lead to even further problems down the line.
We must be very careful these days, for everyone is very easily decieved & it is prophesied 'everyone will be deceived' by the philosophies of men.
I instead believe what the Prophets teach - that we already have all the answers & power we need to find peace & solice & answers to all our problems in life in just the simple & free words & teachings of the Prophets, ancient & modern, along with Prayer. If we will just follow what they say & live worthy of the Spirit to receive even additional truths & answers to our problems we will receive more peace & direction & solutions than we know what to do with or have room enough to receive.
We have become a society dependent on just buying relief & answers to our problems, because it's much easier than true repentance & it can seem to work & bring relief for awhile.
But no one, not even God, can bring lasting peace, happiness, righteousness, self-worth or confidence to someone or release or take away sins, weaknesses or inherited or acquired burdens from someone or take away their guilt, emotional pain or unrighteous destructive tendencies caused from wrong choices & the breaking of covenants & commandments.
Those things must be earned & worked through by the person themselves through sincere repentance, righteous living & keeping covenants. It doesn't require anyone else except God & maybe a Priesthood leader to confess to, to do that. And it especially won't cost any money.
Only when we are solely & completely dependent on Heavenly Father for relief & answers to our problems, will he freely give us all the true & lasting answers we need.
Anonymous:
ReplyDelete(I respect your view, and want to add a comment for discussion)
The same could be said for almost everything related to western medicine. Ideas and precepts of men. An antibiotic, or pill to lower blood pressure. A Tylenol? Those don't claim the Lord for their source of effectiveness. Just so happens in western US thought a blood pressure pill is so widely accepted no one even thinks to ask the question. On the other hand a more energy related eastern view of health care is immediately scrutinized.
Who gripes about a pill to lower cholesterol? Or a pill to lower blood pressure? Or a Tylenol for reoccurring headaches? But when a new form of healing or modality comes forward to help with those very issues it's questioned.
Had you grown up in an eastern country, but had the same view and testimony, do you think you'd feel differently about the modalities?
This is not meant as an argument, I respect your point of view, and offer this for discussion purposes.
In response to the above question:
ReplyDeleteI believe that if I grew up in an Eastern country & may have relied on or used some of these modalities, but then came to an understanding of the Gospel as I have now, I would not continue to use such modalities, for the Gospel is sufficient & it's power is sure.
I am quite familiar with many of these energy modalities & I feel they range from destructive to rather benign. But I have not found them necessary for use or safe to depend on. I am sorry to give that opinion, I do not want to offend anyone. I respect that others may have differing opinions on such.
But from what I have witnessed I do feel to raise a caution & even a warning on such things.
Hmm..
ReplyDeleteAnonymous vs. Anonymous.
;)
dbs
Agree to disagree.
ReplyDeleteI respect your opinion, and that your experience supports it. I won't judge your view if you won't judge mine.
The fruits in each individual case should speak for its self.
Dear "Anonymous, of June 5, 2010 11:17 AM", whichever of the many anonymouses you are! :)
ReplyDeleteYou said in your comment, "I believe that if I grew up in an Eastern country & may have relied on or used some of these modalities, but then came to an understanding of the Gospel as I have now, I would not continue to use such modalities, for the Gospel is sufficient & it's power is sure."
To really address this issue, we need to look at 3 things:
1) Is the fulness of the Gospel the same as the full Gospel?
2) Why aren't we a healed people and why aren't we healing people?
3) What will it take for us to have the full Gospel and become a healed people who can heal our people?
--------------------
1) We are told in the scriptures that we have the fulness of the Gospel. I don't think there's any argument there. But what does that mean? We are told in 3 Nephi 26: 8-12 that the Lord is going to try our faith with just A PART of His Gospel first. So that must mean that "the fulness of the Gospel" is not the full Gospel. We know that the Gospel encompasses all truth and that all truth comes from God. I believe from what the scriptures say and from Denver is trying to help us understand, that "the fulness of the Gospel", what we have been given already through the Book of Mormon, is enough -- enough to get us through the veil where we can receive the rest.
2) It makes sense that we aren't a healed people yet, because for the most part, we haven't gotten through the veil yet -- most of us, almost the entire Church, haven't even understood yet that getting through the veil in this life, receiving the Second Comforter, being redeemed, having the priesthood conferred upon us by God Himself, and coming to have the true power of the priesthood and not just the authority of it -- is even an option, even a concept. And we are so dang faithful that we content ourselves with the form of godliness we have -- even when it doesn't work.
(continued in next comment:)
3) If we want the full Gospel, we have to realize that we don't have it already, and that we aren't applying the part we do have called "the fulness of the Gospel". And I don't think we're helping ourselves with either of these by being afraid of finding truth outside of what we already have. It defies logic to think this attitude of fear and closedness is going to work for us.
ReplyDeleteWe have a great opportunity here. We can apply all that we do have through the Church and the Scriptures and what we understand of the Gospel to gain more -- to gain a personal relationship with the Savior and an ability to learn from the Holy Ghost -- so that we don't have to be afraid of learning truth however and wherever He wants to show it to us. We can get through the veil. We can learn what the ancient Eastern cultures know about healing -- directly from the Spirit or directly from them! What a concept! We can understand what truths He has already given us. We can align our lives with those truths. We can become a healed people. We can have the power to heal others. The road ahead can be positive for us. We only need to be afraid of staying in the fear that seems to be paralyzing us already. Quite a paradox.
Denver has just told us to re-read the Book of Mormon with new eyes and see that it is speaking to us, condemning us. This is painful at first, but it is freeing after you recover from the initial shock. We are the ones who are saying "All is well in Zion" -- who else can even use those words? We are the ones saying we don't need any more truth than what we have -- "a quad and a conference report, a quad and a conference report, we already have a quad and a conference report and we don't need any more truth". We are the ones who have polluted the Holy Church of God (Mormon 8:38). Who else could pollute it? You have to have it to pollute it. The bad news is the good news. It's much better to find out that the reason we are doing so poorly is OUR OWN fault! Because then we can correct it. If the reason we are doing so poorly is someone else's fault, then we're victims and we're dead in the water. But we're not victims. We have met the enemy and it is us, and we can repent and come unto Christ and be healed.
And there you have it, and there it is. :)
It's almost humorous (if it weren't so tragic) that in our blind faithfulness we think we are healed even when we're not. Americans in general are the sickest people on earth. We have more illness due to chronic disease than any other nation on the earth. And the statistics on Mormons aren't far behind. Even the rural Chinese who smoke and drink like sieves are 17 times healthier than Americans and 10 times healthier than Mormons. And yet we are content to continue forward with failed priesthood blessings, taking our sick loved ones to the doctors to be healed, only to have the majority of them stay just as ill as everyone else. This isn't to say that Western medicine doesn't ever help people. It does many times -- especially in trauma care, where we are first in the world, unlike our being last in the world in care of chronic disease.
ReplyDeleteThat we aren't a healed people is a simple fact. So why aren't we healing people?
Why should God heal us through priesthood blessings when the way are living our lives flies in the face of what He has already revealed to us? We've hardly even begun to live the Word of Wisdom. We aren't just closed to understanding what He's revealed to the ancient Eastern cultures about healing (which, by the way, is, for the most part, simply physical, emotional, and spiritual truths that underlie our health), we're closed to understanding what He has told us as Mormons personally.
And then there's the whole issue that Denver has been addressing about our having the authority of the priesthood but not the power (Pres, Packer's whole most recent Conf.) Authority doesn't heal. Power does. We don't have the power. We aren't healing people. We aren't a healed people.
(continued in one last comment)
Kisi,
ReplyDeleteHi, I'm 'that' anonymous you were replying to. I agree with most everything you said. We men & women in the Church don't generally have the power we should to heal ourselves & others because we aren't living the Gospel, at least what we have already been given, which is enough to gain us Exaltation & get us through the veil so we can recieve even more.
But I for one am not fearful of going out of the box, I believe there is much knowledge out in the world from many who are not of our faith that can benefit us. But there is also much philosophy that is thought to be truth that isn't.
My main belief is, no matter what knowledge or heaing practices are out there, nothing is more powerful than the Priesthood. It is the most powerful force in the Universe. If one will just live the Gospel of Jesus Christ & gain this power, there would be little, if any, need for any other lesser form of healing.
I'm the "other" anonymous that's been in on this conversation, the one that asked the question about growing up in an eastern culture, and who has agreed to disagree.
ReplyDeleteIn response to
"My main belief is, no matter what knowledge or healing practices are out there, nothing is more powerful than the Priesthood. It is the most powerful force in the Universe. If one will just live the Gospel of Jesus Christ & gain this power, there would be little, if any, need for any other lesser form of healing."
Right, in fact why don't all of us just get translated right now, then nothing "lesser" is necessary?
I agree, nothing is more powerful than the priesthood, but you seem to have a very very specific idea for what the Priesthood looks like. Making everything outside your experience a "lesser form". Perhaps not everyone comes to the same Gospel understanding and it's healing powers in the same course of life events you have. We all grow and gain understanding in unique ways, correct? Are you open to the possibility that some peoples life events and challenges have created very different needs and thus different looking path to the Lord than yours?
Does the possibility exist that there are persons using modalities with pure hearts and aligned life who's work promotes blessings and faith for others that fall outside the spectrum of "Destructive - Benign"?
I think the possibility is at least worth some thought.
My main belief is that God can operate through whatever means a person needs or will understand. To judge one form as "lesser" or unnecessary implies that Gods power has to look a certain way for everyone.
My comment about "why don't all of us get translated right now" was childish, ignore that. Moment of immaturity.
ReplyDeleteThere is something compelling to the Gospel having superior healing power over anything else. I'm intrigued by your words. Also about how much of healing is philosophy and not truth.
So to you I say, I will gladly trade any error I posses for more truth. If you can help me see something I am in error about or a truth I've not seen or understood regarding healing, health, or the new modalities, you will have gained a life long friend.
Hey you two Anonymouses! This is really fun, no? I appreciate both your comments and I hope that you are having as good of a time as I am discussing this.
ReplyDeleteHere are my thoughts having just read both of yours. (First of all, I wish you would use names and not be afraid to stand behind what you say with your name, but no matter...)
Yesterday I said in my comment that the Gospel contains ALL truth. This is not a small concept. This means that if there is some truth out there in the world about healing that we do not know about in the Church, it is part of the Gospel, nonetheless, and is coming from Christ Himself. He is the source of all truth. To say that one piece of truth from Him is lesser than another is quite a presumption. And besides, why would we ever want to limit how much truth we're open to?
Consider this example: Many times problems that we have in our health -- emotional, physical, mental, and spiritual -- are caused by the presence of evil spirits and/or unclean spirits (the latter being the spirits of people who have lived on the earth and who have died but whose spirits linger here rather than moving on to the light and to whatever the Lord would have them do next.)
The priesthood can sometimes cast out those spirits. But sometimes there's more to it than that. Sometimes a wounded part of the person is holding onto that dark spirit with its agency, but that wounded part of the person might not be present in the person's consciousness, so they don't realize they are holding onto the dark spirit with their agency and allowing it to be there, or even allowing it to return if the priesthood is able to cast it out. In such a case, the person needs more help. They need to be able to help that wounded part of themselves feel safe enough, or get converted, or be willing, or have more understanding so that they are willing to let the dark spirit go. When that is the case, the priesthood isn't even needed to cast it out. The person can do it themselves with their agency. Remember that Heavenly Father said that although Satan's gang would have some power with people, people would have more power over them. (Think temple.)
What if priesthood holders weren't afraid to understand how things work and to have knowledge of truth that the Savior has given to others outside the Church (and to some few within who are open to knowing it) so that they could have access to both!? How amazing would that be?
Or imagine this: men and women inside the Church with the fulness of the Gospel who are open to receiving all the truth and knowledge the Lord could give them and FAITH too!
The priesthood without faith is powerless, and the priesthood without knowledge is a tragedy. That is mostly where we're at today. The only thing keeping us from having more of both is fear. Why just be content with part of what the Lord has to give us? Why not have everything He could give us? Don't you think He wants us to want it all and to have it all? We are the ones stopping that -- never Him.
I think they should be addressed as A1 and A2.
ReplyDelete:)
Kisi is spot on w most of her posts..
dbs
I'll be A1 I suppose.
ReplyDeleteKisi: Your words speak to me.
I know of many people who have a broad spectrum of challenges, for example lets take depression. For this individual, it was not a lack of prayer, scripture study, trying to live the Gospel and keep the commandments, or lack of heeding inspired council or receiving blessings. All of those things were in order.
Yet the challenge remained, and insult was often added to injury when people would think the person was not being spiritual enough or not living to Gospel enough or praying sincerely enough to receive healing.
However the person did follow their own promptings and through gifted individuals, work/modality that was aligned, was true, was Faith in Christ centered, the person was able to find incredible healing and success. (I admit such events may not be the industry norm)
So it's hard for me when the other anonymous says that some of the modalities are "not from the Lord" or range from "Destructive to Benign" There are many who are not in the business of purchasing relief, or seeking a lesser philosophy when they should be keeping the commandments. That's not it at all. (although in our society that does exist, and I'm in total agreement with anonymous 2 on 90% of what he/she says)
Some peoples faith is often good, there are just a few blocks in their life that prevent them from developing further.
I feel like such individuals (and gifted folk that help facilitate it) need a voice. That's my purpose.
I love the Gospel, and it's author. I'll gladly part with any error I possess. If someone has additional understanding I can add to my life I'm all for it. Please share with me.
I agree, this is fun, helpful too.
Kisi,
ReplyDeleteIf wounded people are holding onto dark spirits, nothing but repentance by that person & following the Gospel will help them. None of these modalities has power to heal them, only the Gospel does, IF & when the person chooses to repent. Such modalities often make things worse, for it gets people to depend on man for relief & not on God.
I see so many people get sidetracked with all these energy modalities, which usually cost something, when they could solve their problems easily, quickly & for free if they would only live the Gospel.
I just believe there is no need for them.
You said "Priesthood without faith or knowledge is powerless". But the truth is, there is no such thing as Priesthood without faith & knowledge. The Priesthood is supreme, it includes all faith, knowledge & all healing truths into one power.
That is why nothing else but the Priesthood is needed to heal someone. Even the person who possesses the power of the Priesthood is healed by just the possessing & earning of that power.
I do not understand why people focus on these energy modalities rather than just gaining Priesthood power. Unless it's because it's definately alot easier than gaining Priesthood power & you can't charge for giving blessings. Those are the only reasons I can think of that people would side step the real thing.
I am really sorry if I offend anyone with my beliefs, I have just seem too many people hurt & deceived by such things.
Dear A-2 (since the other person has already claimed A-1),
ReplyDeleteI'm not offended at all. It is wonderful to have an open discussion about this.
You seem to have a lot of energy on energy modalities. Have you been burned by something out there in the energy world? There certainly is plenty of crap out there, but it's sad to throw the baby out with the bath water. There is something very special and unusual about the Manti Temple, but Manti is also the hotbed of a zillion nutcase fundamentalist things. Satan will always throw in counterfeits to distract us from what is good. The Lord tells us to be careful to not call good evil and evil good. We do need to be careful.
Notice this: The Church refers people to psychologists because they don't know how to help people who are really wounded right now. General Authorities, Stake Presidents, Bishops, and fathers are not healing people who have experienced horrible sexual abuse in their childhoods. The Church does not know what to do with these people. They counsel bishops to refer them out to professionals. What priesthood holders could do if they were free to use both their priesthood AND had knowledge to go with it of how to help victims of sexual abuse is presently unknown, because we aren't getting to see it. For the most part, outside of professionals, priesthood holders have NO IDEA what is going on with wounded people and they have no idea how to help them. This is OK. It's how it is right now. This is where the Church is right now. They don't know what to do. I'm not throwing any rocks. I just know it could be otherwise, and someday it will be.
My point isn't to defend energy modalities. It's to promote truth wherever it's found. We are in serious trouble. We need all the truth we can obtain.
Great thoughts Kisi.
ReplyDeleteWe know that the Priesthood and it's power doesn't use magic. It follows natural laws which include principles of biology, physics, chemistry, energetics of all kinds. Albeit higher levels than current science probably embraces.
When Christ healed with Godly power, when the Priesthood is exercised there are non magical principles of truth at work, right? If someone seeks and discovers some of the energetic or physical truth about that process, I think it's worth investigating.
Just some thoughts.
A(1)
Hmm..now I'm wondering if Mr. A1's surname = "Sauce".
ReplyDelete;)
I agree with you, A-1. Everything operates off of truth, and we can only have faith in the truth anyway. Someday we'll understand enough that nothing will seem like a miracle to us. Meanwhile, I love to learn things that are true, and I believe that when we do, the Savior has choreographed that opportunity for us anyway.
ReplyDeleteBrigham Young spoke about the Gospel encompassing all truth and that we should embrace truth wherever we find it.
Dear A-1 and A-2 and any other A's who read this,
ReplyDeleteIt would be really nice if you would pick a pseudonym to use on this blog if you don't feel comfortable using your name. Then we can always tell whose comments are whose and get to know you better.
Dbs:
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean by Sauce?
A(1)
A1,
ReplyDeleteIf A1 is your first name and Sauce was your last name then you would be this:
http://www.dealseekingmom.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/a1-steak-sauce-coupons.bmp
;)
dbs
Oh, got it. Apologies for not getting that, I've never tried the sauce.
ReplyDeleteA1.
Kisi: You are right, I won't use anonymous anymore. If I post again it will be with a name. I like where this discussion about gifts healing and truth has taken us.
"A1 Sauce" -- for steaks. It's just a joke.
ReplyDeleteDear A1, When you use a name, please tell us that you were formerly A1 so we can spot you! Thanks.
ReplyDeleteKisi,
ReplyDeleteYes, it is sadly true that most all Church leaders push people towards psychology for help with their problems. But that does not mean it is a good thing. I believe that almost always more harm is done by referring people out to worldly philosophies mingled with truth than using the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which holds the answers to all problems in life. Of such philosophies we are taught to beware of & not believe.
Such is just a sad admission that leaders do not have discernment or understanding of right & wrong or the courage to preach repentance, which is almost always the needed remedy for all emotional & mental issues.
Also, not all truth is equal. There are many truths which are less important than greater truths. The Priesthood is not necessarily the collection of all truths, though it could be called the 'capstone' of all truth.
FOr the Priesthood is the most supreme truth of all. That is why it is more powerful than any other truth out there. It should be gained & used to heal all things, even & especially, emotional & mental illness.
A-2
Like did A1 come out of hiding and identify himself?
ReplyDeletedbs
(Hi folks, I'm formerly known as A-1)
ReplyDeleteA-2: Interesting point. Now you got me curious. Can you give some examples? Take Kisi's example of a person who was sexually abused at a young age. What kinds of repentance would help them heal? Or say... someone who struggles with depression? Or, oh lets say Bi polar. That illness according to some medical stats I read is in increasing very quickly these days. What kinds of repentance would help those three?
I'm honestly curious. (I'm already thinking of things like forgiveness for the abused child) But what else would you add? This may shed light for all of us.
Trevor,
ReplyDeleteI really wish I could explain more about what I said but this is not the place. But you are on the right track thinking 'forgiveness', for that would be one of many things about the Gospel that can help heal a person, whether they are the victim or the abuser.
I also like the quote:
"All psychological problems, from the slightest neurosis to the deepest psychosis, are merely symptoms of the frustration of the fundamental need for the sense of personal worth. Self-Esteem if the basic element in the health of any human personality."
Dr. Willam Glasser
When we 'know who we are' & what our roles are here on earth & why our roles & we are so important & powerful, it changes everything.
A person must have a strong connection to their Father in Heaven to learn who they are & why they are here & what they should do & be able to receive answers to their problems from him, to ever heal completely.
Gaining good education about the power of the Gospel & about evils like & especially 'Abuse', are vital for any Church leader or anyone who wants to have the power to help others heal.
Pres. Hinckley said over & over that Church leaders were receiving such training but most haven't yet.
"People perish without knowledge." Joseph Smith
A2
A2
ReplyDeleteCan we talk more?
trevor2you@yahoo.com
I don't have time to say much today, but I have to write just this: When we have priesthood holders who can move mountains and all that goes with it, then we'll have people who can possibly help people whose spirits have been shattered into 1000 pieces. These people don't even know who they are. They fear God and can't even pray or get near Him.
ReplyDeleteAnd so until we have help available to them, it's horrifying to try to make them feel even worse by claiming that the help they can get is wrong. It is not a small thing that the Church has no help to offer them and often persecutes those who do have gifts to help these people.
If there are any of these men around who can move mountains, we need to know them, and 1.3 million Mormons who are gay, and 4+ million Mormons who have been sexually abused as children can go and get help from them.
More later.
Kisi-
ReplyDeleteThose are huge numbers..
Are you positive they're accurate?
I mean millions of LDS kids sexually abused?
I mean MILLIONS?
The gay numbers too..I know they're are gender confused members, but hundreds of thousands of gay LDS peeps?
dbs
Kisi,
ReplyDeleteI understand your & their frustrations & feelings. But even if we don't have men who can move mountains, it mattereth not, according to the Prophets the Gospel is still the answer no matter what the problem, if the persons themselves really want to heal, (for many don't) & take advantage of Christs atonement. They must make the choice, & most still can, despite their wounds & trials.
To teach or use anything less or make excuses for them, is a huge disservice to them I believe.
I believe Christ was talking more to those of whom you speak, than most anyone else & he knew his Gospel would help the abused most of all.
A2
My thoughts on Healing, Gifts, and Modalities:
ReplyDelete1. Through faith in Christ anyone may be healed of anything. It does not require being LDS or the administration of a priesthood blessing, but is based upon faith in Jesus Christ.
2. For those who lack sufficient faith to be healed, we are instructed to administer mild herbs and foods, which possess healing properties that strengthen and assist in the healing process.
3. Those who lack sufficient faith to be healed are also instructed to call upon the Elders of the church for a priesthood blessing. There are those who have the gift to be healed and those who have the gift to heal.
Appropriate Uses of Healing Gifts
The law of chastity binds the gift of creation. Similarly, all of God’s gifts which we may be privileged to enjoy are to be similarly bound to righteousness. Gifts are given to all of God’s children, according to their needs and desires. We covenant to use our gifts to serve others and to build God's Kingdom. We do this best as we use our gifts to help turn others fully to Christ.
Should we really disregard gifts we don't understand fully, as A2 suggests, and consider that they are not really a part of the gospel. Remember, gifts used by Christ-centered healers, direct the weak, the suffering, the fractured, the sick, and so forth back to a true hope in Christ. Why then would we ever suggest that they are something less worthy. In the Gospel, the eye cannot do without the foot. Only fear, a lack of knowledge or experience, or something else would ever prevent us from fully embracing the gifts of God or to recognize their great purposes. The temple teaches plainly what these gifts are to be used for.
A medical doctor friend of mine was trained in energy work by a great Navaho healer. He was taught the history of this healing gift. A “Great One,” who visited the Navaho from time to time, taught it to the first Navaho healers. Then the art was passed on. Only a few share the gift at anyone time. My friend, although not Navaho was entrusted and taught the way. He is so gifted, the current shaman or master healer among the Navaho will have no one but my friend administer to him when he needs a healer.
God gives his children gifts to the extent they will receive them. When this friend served as director of all LDS physicians throughout the missions of Europe and Russia, he was called upon by the Area Authority to use his gift to save this G.A.’s daughter, after all conventional medicine and priesthood blessings had failed. My friend restored the young girl’s health. Two weeks after this experience, he was confronted by the father and was asked to tell no one of the experience. Even after his daughter was healed, he still struggled to gratefully embrace a gift from God that saved his daughter's life. Traditions can be limiting and more powerful than truth, even to the upper echelon of the LDS class, as well as to LDS who have been abused by false healers, counselors, therapists, Bishops, Stake Presidents, and so forth. Such experience can also serve as a blessing to heighten a person's discernment, an more fully prepare them to excel within the path of redemption.
Compensation For the Use of Gifts
ReplyDeleteBabylon demands a heavy toll from each of us. There is not a temple built today without the expenditure of money. There is not a prophet, apostle, general authority, BYU professor, or seminary teacher who does not depend upon a financial stipend. Are they receiving money for the use of their gifts? Absolutely! Is it right? Perhaps! Perhaps Not!
Perhaps the real question we should be asking ourselves is why we have not yet come out from under condemnation as a people, to fully embrace the path of redemption, to become translated, to build the city Zion, and to establish the Lord's economic system, instead of continuing to embrace the economic system of Babylon under which we labor?
I’m an Idaho farm boy and have a right to ask which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Is it right that any person gives abundantly of herself without some exchange that insures that she too is okay? Is it really fair for our society to embrace a financial stipend for prophets, apostles, lawyers, teachers, doctors, x-spouses, and so forth, but not for others who labor using their gifts to serve our needs? Either we accept Babylon and its heavy toll for what it is, without judging one another for the required exchange that makes it possible to subsist, or together we establish Zion and live according to the Lord’s own economy. I pray daily for this blessing.
In the meantime, we are about as likely to fairly or justly judge others in these matter as we would be to successfully pick all the fly poop out of the pepper. I'm sorry, neither sounds appealing to me.
Thank you, JDS. That was one of the greatest comment-posts I've ever read. It motivates me on so many levels. Thanks for the time it must have taken you to write this.
ReplyDeleteJDS -- that was a fabulous comment. I really appreciate it.
ReplyDeletedb -- about your question to me about the numbers. I said 1.3 million Mormons with reference to same-sex attraction because it is estimated that 1 out 10 people struggle with that issue. My own experience tells me that that is a conservative number. That doesn't mean that 1/10 of the Church is living a gay life style, but gender confusion is a hell for those who suffer from it, whether they live it out or not. Also, it is a spectrum, not just black and white. So 1.3 million is probably on the low side of the truth. A close friend of mine who has very keen "gay-dar", i.e. an ability to see gay energy, tells me that the number is much higher.
As for 4+ million Mormons who have been sexually abused as children -- again, statistics estimate that conservatively between 1 out of 4 and 1 out of 3 girls are sexually abused and about 1 out 6 boys. Again, this is a spectrum. Not all sexual abuse is equal. My own personal feelings from my experience in the healing world are that the numbers are much higher than this. Sexual abuse is epidemic, and the effects are so serious and damaging, that it's growth is exponential.
I believe that only a fraction of those abused as children grow up with a conscious memory of it. Little children cannot contain that horror and subconsciously employ whatever defense mechanisms are required to stay alive and sane.
Interestingly, the psychologist who wrote a book on "false memory syndrome" turned out to have been sexually abused himself as a child and was desperately trying to avoid knowing it by making it unacceptable in the world to recover memories that you haven't always had. His book did enormous damage.
Dear everyone, I've really appreciated the posts and comments on this subject. This whole blog is such a blessing to all of us. Thank you, Denver, and thank you to everyone for your comments. This is starting to feel like an actual community to me. I love you people. Someday it will be fun to really know you.
JDS
ReplyDeleteWhat an interesting post. Thank you for sharing. You addressed the exact thing I was talking about way back up with the first comment to this post.
Glad someone spoke to the questions I posed about the medical doctor and about also using Gods gifts and it's connection to finances.
Your comments have been valuable.
Priesthood, Gospel, and Repentance
ReplyDeleteAll truth is circumscribed into one whole. The Hebrew definition of repentance is to move from a place of darkness into God's light or back into the great whole of truth. Man/woman receives light according to how readily they will receive it—no faster and no slower. If we say, “I have had enough, and then we put down stakes and say beyond this I will not go” more light will not be given and we become stuck in our preconceived notions regarding the whole of truth.
As a new convert my great grandfather had to leave his home in Canada; he no sooner arrived at Kirkland and it fell under siege (pretty heavy stuff for a brand new convert). The rest of his party left Kirkland for Far West; he went in search of his cattle that had been stolen at Kirkland. He tracked them to Hauns Mill, arriving the very day it was attacked. He survived this awful day. After helping with the horrible situation there he left with his cattle and headed to Far West and on and on. He became a bodyguard for Joseph Smith, and later Brigham Young and witnessed most every major event in church history.
He was so accustomed to being booted out from one place to the next that when he arrived in Utah he outfitted what he called his Jackson Wagon. He kept it polished, oiled, and loaded with supplies until the day he died. With his wagon always ready he was the first out of the valley when the call came to save the saints in Wyoming. I could go on, but I want to make a point; he like other common pioneers suffered greatly and wore out his life prematurely. Like our great pioneer predecessors, under any condition wherein we do not believe we can make it past the next rise, we have the choice to persist as far as we are able, to maintain the steel of Nephi who would not go back without accomplishing God’s commands, or to say, “I’ve had enough, I want no more.”
When it appears our faith has failed us because a spouse leaves, a Bishop is blind to truth, or the Brethren permit a philandering spouse to re-enter the temple to marry another, we must persist to the rise where we believe we will drop over and die.
And, if our experiences with a spouse, a neighbor, a Bishop, a Stake President, professional counselors, therapists, or even the Brethren have left us wanting of justice, we may be inclined to say, “There is no truth among today’s priesthood, or among professional counselors, therapists, or those who enjoy healing gifts or who practice various healing modalities. Perhaps in our world and our personal experience, this is true and we are ready to throw the baby out with the bath water; yet, any healing modality that can enable a person to become unstuck, that can enable them to have hope in Christ, to believe and pray with faith and certitude, to become more firmly rooted in the path of redemption, is an important part of the whole of truth. It is not a substitute for or a lesser truth.
The misuse of truth, or teaching without God’s Spirit, or accepting a spirit among us that is not of God are each common examples of mistakes many make in today’s world. Most of us, including today’s priesthood, professional counselors, therapists, those who enjoy healing gifts or who practice various healing modalities each must learn to employ truth correctly. All do not do so successfully, but to the extent anyone does—Oh what a blessing and a gift to the world! They become a part of the fountain of living water!