Friday, August 13, 2010

2 Nephi 29: 13

"And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews."

Well, happily the Jews "shall" get the Nephite words. Some day. Currently for the most part they don't want them. And, even if they did, the "words of the Nephites" will include the sealed portion, because they are certainly part of the "words" the Nephites recorded. So this will be future, even if there were Jews interested in taking the offer today.

The Nephites also "shall" have the words of the Jews. However, once again as we have seen, the words include a great volume of material spoken by Christ, recorded by the Jews, and not in anyone's current possession. So this, too, must be in the future. For now we aren't even sure of who these "Nephites" are.

The Nephites and the Jews "shall" get the words of the lost tribes of Israel. This is a category, not a number. Remember that.  So once again, future event. Don't know when.  Don't know how many records. Don't even know how many groups will be included.

But all these records are inevitably to come forth. Just not yet.


Read Mormon's explanation: "But behold the plates of Nephi do contain the more part of the things which he taught the people. And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken. And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them.  And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.  Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people.  Therefore I, Mormon, do write the things which have been commanded me of the Lord. And now I, Mormon, make an end of my sayings, and proceed to write the things which have been commanded me." (3 Nephi 26: 7-12.)

What if I do believe these things? What if I will accept the things which He offers? What if my faith has been tried and I am found to be deserving of more information? Can a person come out from under the condemnation referred to above, even if the rest of mankind fails to acquit themselves? Alma comes with the reply:  "Yes." (Alma 12: 9-11.) So, as it turns out, ignorance is voluntary.

Well, shut my mouth! (That's a pun, you see.)

[Can you do puns in a religious blog? Or will the long faced and dour be offended? Well, they don't get it anyway. Hey! Why are you reading this if it offends you? Stop it!]

What do you suppose it would take for the Lord to respond to us removing the condemnation that we labor under? How should we go about trying to make that happen? I don't see it happening, do you? I'm sort of persuaded by Nephi's pessimism of the gentiles of our day.  Even this mild blog discussion I am attempting has provoked ire in many readers. How we fix our collective disinterest seems a monumental enterprise beyond human ability. I fear it would take some great calamity to unfold before we would change. Then again, I think the Lord has already told us that. (D&C 1: 17; 45: 50.)


  1. oh dear... so it seems.

    Other scriptures come to mind:

    Hel. 11: 4

    O Lord, do not suffer that this people shall be destroyed by the sword; but O Lord, rather let there be a famine in the land, to stir them up in remembrance of the Lord their God, and perhaps they will repent and turn unto thee

    Heleman 4:34

    Now this great evil, which came unto the people because of their iniquity, did stir them up again in remembrance of the Lord their God.

    Alma 4: 19

    And this he did that he himself might go forth among his people, or among the people of Nephi, that he might preach the word of God unto them, to stir them up in remembrance of their duty, and that he might pull down, by the word of God, all the pride and craftiness and all the contentions which were among his people, seeing no way that he might reclaim them save it were in bearing down in pure ftestimony against them.

    Alma 25: 6
    For many of them, after having suffered much loss and so many afflictions, began to be stirred up in remembrance of the words which Aaron and his brethren had preached to them in their land;
    therefore they began to disbelieve the traditions of their fathers, and to believe in the Lord, and that he gave great power unto the Nephites; and thus there were many of them converted in the wilderness.

  2. Having had a focus on the Gentiles for so long here, I noticed that in this scripture, the Gentiles are missing. We have the Jews, Nephites and Lost Tribes all sharing the words of Christ but no mention of the Gentiles. Hum.....


  3. It's just fine that this blog makes some of us upset at times - that's what gets us thinking. What's really dangerous is disinterest or apathy. I remember years ago my dad telling me that the hardest thing on his mission was the people who just "didn't care." If someone doesn't care there is no discussion, no rumination...what do you do with that? People on this blog have mentioned that their spouses have been bothered but are now considering and will most likely eventually embrace. What's the saying, "first we abhor, then we endure and lastly we embrace." ...sorry, couldn't resist, but you get the pic.

  4. As much as I hate to see/experience a great calamity...(and I will undoubtably regret saying this when it hits and having to endure through it). If it will help move us out of this quagmire..then let the vile get poured.

    Quick analogy:
    My daughter fell on loose gravel the other day, causing a deep wound that needed to be cleaned out. My wife and I didn't think it was sever enough to go to the hospital, but instead thougth we could nurse it ourselves. Although difficult, we calmed her through the painful process of extracting the small gravel/dirt and cleaning out the wound. Despite the screaming and crying from my daughter (which caused my wife and I sorrow), the cleansing needed to happen for the wounded arm to heal and return back whole.

    We all have fallen, individually, and collectively.. as a country, and as an institution... we can pretend that we are not hurt, we can dismiss the fact that we need to be cleansed.. but the reality is, our disbelief, our wickedness, and idolatry to vain things.. will only continue to fester.
    As much as I don't want the crap to hit the fan.. I would like to move on to the healing.. Tired of just putting bandaids on a growing infection.

    Continue on Denver... I am realizing that I have never really read the Book of Mormon like I should of.

  5. Denver said: I don't see it happening, do you? I'm sort of persuaded by Nephi's pessimism of the gentiles of our day. Even this mild blog discussion I am attempting has provoked ire in many readers. How we fix our collective disinterest seems a monumental enterprise beyond human ability.

    I think I remember you posting that you believe in the importance, centrality and power of the individual, and that more can be done to change the course of history by the actions of the individuals than anything else.

    Is not your blog an "experiment" to see if you can touch us individually, and encourage that change of heart? Have you not witnessed individuals testifying that their hearts have been broken and their spirits are becoming contrite, as they seek an audience with the Savior? If not, is the worth of one soul great? Is the value of my soul worth the efforts you made these months, even if you are bombarded by the wrath of irked readers? If I told you that as an individual, I was striving in earnest to remove our (my) condemnation, and that your labors are bearing fruit, would that help remove your pessimism?

    From one individual to another, please don't shut your mouth.


  6. No pain, no gain. No irked readers, no spiritual growth. Many of us don't like our applecarts overturned. Too bad. We need to be unsettled. Maybe we will then repent.

    Thanks, Denver. Please continue.


  7. I have McKay (that posts comments occassionally) to thank for giving me my first exposure to Denver's "The Second Comforter" four years ago, and then telling me about this blog a few months ago, too.

    Personally, I consider access to all of this information and the associated call to repentence to be one of the greatest "tender mercies" I have ever been extended by the Lord. Truly, I find myself in deep and ponderous thought throughout each and every day as a consequence. I am overjoyed at having the Book of Mormon come alive for me again. I had reached a point I wasn't sure HOW to understand more from my study.

    I remember when in one of Denver's first books that he mentioned that he did a scripture study that focused on just one verse at each sitting...and he did this for years...I was completely baffled at how that was possible and wished I had been among Denver's inner circle of friends so that I could have attended and learned. Lucky me...NOW I am finally BEGINNING to understand HOW that type of study and disection of scripture is possible...and I didn't even have to be in Denver's inner circle, either! :) I just wish there were the hours available in each day to devote what my heart is wanting to devote to study. Keep it coming, Denver. Thanks.


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