Tuesday, April 27, 2010

Opposing wickedness through violence

There is a continuing unease about the subject of opposing wickedness through violence.  So I thought I would add this additional explanation:
I do not foresee that a gun will be effective against radioactivity; nor against weaponized anthrax.  I read the plagues that are coming and the descriptions in D&C 29: 15-21 and I do not foresee a handgun doing me any good under those circumstances.  I see wicked being killed, but no role for me and a sidearm to join in the fray.
I do not foresee any need for Zion to be protected by armed machine-gun nests around a perimeter when a pillar of smoke by day and fire by night hangs over them. (D&C 45: 65-71.)  In the description, it does not say they go up with songs of joy, interrupted by occasional gunfire and all hell breaking loose.  It says they proceed quite peacefully, singing songs of everlasting joy. (verse 71.)
When sickness and scourge are poured out, there will be widespread death and destruction.  But there is no need for me to join in the killing.  In fact, all those who take up the sword are included within the ranks of the wicked scheduled to die.  (D&C 45: 30-33.)
I think the "power" we need in the Priesthood of God will be necessary to protect us from plagues.  To stay the disease which will be poured out.  To keep at bay the effects of the illnesses caused by the wickedness and evil of men who, killing one another and leaving the unburied dead to rot, will spread cholera, diphtheria and other illness.
I do not foresee the need to take up arms.  The violence of nature will be responsible for killing many.  In fact, the depopulation of the earth will be as a result of the following, as I understand it:
Pestilence incident to war
Famine (incident to war and pestilence)
Drought (incident to wickedness)
Hail (to destroy what few crops remain)
Earthquakes and Tempests (targeting those who remain alive but who are wicked and threaten Zion)
Nowhere on my list is there an entry for a Zion-based sniper unit.  (I'm just trying to let a little humor into this, not mocking this idea.  It is a serious idea to be sure, deserving serious thought and pondering.)
What we are going to face is global genocide.  A handgun won't do much good against the things that are prophesied.  There may be isolated opportunities to shoot a bad guy.  But there may also be the same isolated bad guy who, in his fear and cowardice, may be vulnerable to conversion to the Gospel if we don't shoot him.  What is coming will intimidate mankind so fearfully that men's hearts will fail them.  I think preaching to them while they are in such a stupor rather than shooting them may work.  And if not, well then I haven't taken my brother's life.



  1. Denver your aversion to guns is rather obvious. You try so hard to convince us that getting a gun and protecting yourself is the wrong thing to do no matter what. In fact your "assessment" of DnC 45: 30-33 is the same thing you have said before.

    DnC 45 33 ....yet men will harden their hearts against me, and they will take up the sword, one against another, and they will kill one another.

    This scripture, nor any other scripture, nor words from any Prophet of God, nor words from Christ himself, say what you say here ...> "In fact, all those who take up the sword are included within the ranks of the wicked scheduled to die."

    You forgot some very important verbiage in your statement. Such as, all those that harden their hearts against God. That is what the scripture says. It does not say ALL people that take up arms are wicked as you are saying and you have continually said.

    I agree with most everything you say concerning weapons Denver. Weapons cannot and will not ever replace faith in our Lord and Savior, his priesthood or the power thereof. Weapons will not be in Zion or help you against plagues pestilence or the things that are prophesied as you say.

    But let us be clear here and reason together instead of stating things that the scriptures do not say......

    Do the scriptures say....

    You will be excluded from Zion, sanctification, eternal life, or that you are breaking any of our covenants with God if we kill someone in defense of ours or our families lives? No Denver they do not. And you using much bloviation will never change this fact.

    In fact DnC 98:31 says the complete opposite.

    The vast majority of saints will never have to kill anyone if they are standing in holy places. Yet the people that prepare in all things, are only doing as the Lord has instructed. These people will reap the benefits of doing all they can do and letting the Lord make up the rest. All things means all things and there is no interpretation that can exclude anything whatsoever.

    On the other hand you keep saying that ALL people that take up arms are wicked.

    I will say this one last time Denver and then I will drop this.

    Christ has said he will justify his followers if they kill someone while protecting there own lives. Christ cannot justify the wicked.

    As with all things we must be close to the spirit so that we may make the right decisions especially when life threatening decisions are made. If we harden are hearts against God, do not live up to our covenants or do not obey his words, then we have no promise.

    I hope when I am faced with that decision I will do what the spirit instructs, even if it means laying down my weapons as the Anti-Nephi-Lehi's did, and letting myself and family die unto the Lord. But if the spirit instructs me to protect mine or my families lives, or if there is no discernible promptings from the spirit, I will know that I am in the right to take someones life that is trying to take mine.

  2. I was reading Matthew today....in chapter 13... my thoughts were similar to what you've posted.

    30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

  3. Denver I hope you don't mind if I post this again?
    "I am not trying to persuade anyone. Go ahead and resolve this issue for yourself. I am only setting out my own view. Take it for what you think it is worth. If you think it is "of the Devil" or "Satanic" then of course you ought to reject my view. But I have considered the quotes of Brigham Young before reaching my view, and find them in a context which even I believe he grew to regret."

  4. ryann,

    Christ said in no uncertain terms that he justifies anyone that defends themselves against someone who is trying to kill you, even if you kill them. I didn't say it, some drunk off the street didn't say it, Christ said it. Christ is obviously referring to people that are righteous people and people that have not hardened their hearts against him.

    I am not comparing what I said with what Denver said, I am comparing what Christ said with what Denver said. Denver is saying something is fact that is not fact and has never been said by Christ or any of Christs servants. Denver said ALL people that use weapons are wicked, Christ has never ever said this.

    I know Denver is not trying to persuade anyone. But when someone says something is a fact that is obviously counter to what the scriptures say, especially when it is Christ himself talking, we should take note.

  5. I think Denver is just trying to show us that there is a different way to resolve conflict with out weapons. Like the example of the Anti-Nephi-Lehies in Alma 24: 19, 21, 27 the outcome being a very glorious one. And this way may be a higher way that the Lord would prefer as He explains in D&C 98: 34-45. After I read this it shows me that violence is a last resort to the Lord, and even then, like it says in vs 37 He will flight our battles.
    If you have a different view than others, fine. Just ignore what was said and go on your way. It is just being put out there to think about. Negativity towards others for their point of view is maybe not the best.

  6. Steve has left a new comment on your post "Opposing wickedness through violence":


    I am sorry if you think I am being negative because this is not my intent. I know exactly what Denver is trying to show us and I agree with most everything Denver has ever wrote that I have read, including most everything about this subject.

    I know there is a higher way, and, like you said, violence is the last resort most certainly. Also, as you point out, the Lord most definitely has said he will fight our battles. I also agree with you the Lord would prefer you choose the higher law or way.

    The Lord also has said in 98:31 that you are justified for defending your life against someone that is trying to kill you. We are not talking about major battles here with thousands of people involved. I know there are many ways to resolve conflicts but we are not talking about this either. We are talking about someone trying to take your life through violence.

    We are also not talking about my view, we are talking about what the Lord has said verses what someone says is a fact that really is not. If someone says this is my opinion or my view then we are talking about something completely different.

    Last but not least, I will not ignore something that is out and out wrong and may be the cause of someone thinking incorrectly about our Church or the scriptures. We have enough dogma and false "facts" about these things to just let them go.

    Sorry for being such a bulldog here, but I call em as I see em. Not trying to be mean or negative.

    (reposted by CM)

  7. None of us wants violence, I'm confident of that. How about beefing up our "passive defenses" so that we don't have to shoot except as a last resort, as exemplified by the Nephties (Alma 48ff) and by the Pioneers in the Salt Lake valley?

    Consider President Packer at General Conference:

    "The Saints broke camp and headed for home to prepare their defenses. Rather than flee, this time President Young declared, “We have transgressed no law, and we have no occasion to do so, neither do we intend to; but as for any nation’s coming to destroy this people, God Almighty being my helper, they cannot come here.”"(Boyd K. Packer, “The Test,” Ensign, Nov 2008, 88–91)

    Their guns were deterrents, not used to fire upon the invading army sent by the US government. Not that history repeats itself...
    Best Wishes,
    Steven Jones

  8. It might be helpful to read section 98 in it's entirety:

    SECTION 98

    Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, August 6, 1833. HC 1: 403–406. This revelation came in consequence of the persecution upon the saints in Missouri. It is natural that the saints in Missouri, having suffered physically and also having lost property, should feel an inclination toward retaliation and revenge. Therefore the Lord gave this revelation. Although some news of the problems in Missouri had no doubt reached the Prophet in Kirtland (nine hundred miles away), the seriousness of the situation could have been known to him at this date only by revelation.
    1–3, Afflictions of the saints shall be for their good; 4–8, The saints are to befriend the constitutional law of the land; 9–10, Honest, wise, and good men should be supported for secular offices; 11–15, Those who lay down their lives in the Lord’s cause shall have eternal life; 16–18, Renounce war and proclaim peace; 19–22, The saints in Kirtland are reproved and commanded to repent; 23–32, The Lord reveals his laws governing the persecutions and afflictions imposed on his people; 33–38, War is justified only when the Lord commands it; 39–48, The saints are to forgive their enemies, who, if they repent, shall also escape the Lord’s vengeance.



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