Never Been A Dissident

I am not and have never been a "dissident" in the LDS Church.

I do not want to reform the LDS Church. I do not want to manage it, or join in managing it, or change its management. There is no "cause" I advocate in the hope of altering a policy or procedure of the LDS Church. Their policies, procedures, programs, choices, how it spends its money, what it builds or who it employs are all matters I am indifferent to.

Those who want to get the LDS Church to ordain women are dissidents. Those who want to have the Book of Abraham abandoned, or want to wear pants (a convention, not a policy), or seek to have homosexuals married are the work of dissidents. There are many causes and many dissidents. I am not one. They are welcome to their causes.

I was converted to a religion which I understood was restored by Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith and contained the latest clarifications, corrections, additions and explanations God wanted me to understand. I am still converted to that religion.

At one time I briefly identified the religion with the LDS Church. But that lasted only a few months. With a little reflection, it was apparent the religion was not the institution. All the other organized religions I was familiar with held the Bible to be God's complete statement of faith. It was not to be added to or expanded upon. The new religion I accepted taught me to believe God spoke still, and revelation would continue. God likewise talked with me for the first time when I joined this new religion. If God hadn't spoken to me in answer to sincere prayer, I would not have become Mormon.

I believe "the extent of [our] knowledge respecting [God's] character and glory will depend upon [our] diligence and faithfulness in seeking after [Him]." (Lectures on Faith, 2nd Lecture, par. 55.) Therefore I ventured to try to gain knowledge about God directly, by my own inquiries to Him. I pursued this in all sincerity of heart, believing God would answer me when I sought Him. (James 1: 5.) I have learned it to be true that "the inquiry frequently terminated, indeed always terminated when rightly pursued, in the most glorious discoveries and eternal certainty." (Id. par. 56.)

To practice this religion, I joined the LDS Church because I thought it welcomed and encouraged this kind of relationship with God. For a season it seemed to do just that. Over the course of four decades, however, it became increasingly difficult to pursue the religion inside an institution with ambitions which ran contrary to my desire to understand God and become acquainted with Him.

I did not resist the desire of the LDS church to control its meetings and pursue an ambitious course of controlling what its members could say. I did not dissent and petition for change. But neither did I cease from seeking God in the manner I found in Joseph Smith's example, Nephi's teachings, Jacob's sermons, Alma's writings, Abinadi's warnings and Christ's discourses. It was my understanding that I was free to worship God "according to the dictates of [my own] conscience," and the LDS Church was likewise free to enjoy "the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may." (11th Article of Faith.)

If they had permitted me to do so, I was absolutely content to remain a member of the LDS Church. Although I understood the religion differently than taught within the programs of the church, the church had the right to pursue its course without my interference. I do not believe I ever interfered. I studied the faith, tried to live the faith, tried to understand what it offered each of us when rightly pursued, and ultimately received "the most glorious discoveries and eternal certainty" from my pursuit.

Like others who tasted from this tree of life, once I learned the religion restored through Joseph Smith was indeed alive, and able to reconnect us to the True Vine (John 15: 1-5), I wanted others to also know it was possible to eat from the Tree of Life. (See 1 Ne. 8: 12; also Enos 1: 9.) It should be welcome and appropriate for all Latter-day Saints to both belong to the LDS Church and to reconnect with heaven and be filled with knowledge from God.

I thought I was free to believe and teach others about how great things God offered to us all, liberally, if we ask in faith, believing. However, the LDS Church took the position I was out of harmony with the institution and should be excommunicated. They were free to do so. I do not challenge their right to remove me from their membership roles.

Now, just as before when I was part of the institution, I still believe and practice the religion restored through Joseph Smith. I believe I have always been free to practice this faith, and I intend to continue to do so. Now, however, I am unmolested by institutional constraint and control, and therefore I needn't be concerned about some of the things I was before.

There is no office in either the LDS Church or the priesthood of God called "Prophet." Nor is there an office in the LDS Church or the priesthood called "Seer;" nor "Revelator" nor "Translator." There is an office called "President" and an office called "Apostle" and "High Priest" and "Elder" and others.

The role of a "prophet" comes as a gift from God, not from holding an office. To receive this gift, one must receive a prophecy from God, or a testimony from Jesus, to be delivered to people. Likewise revelation comes from God, and when it comes the person receiving it has received revelation and is therefore a revelator. It is a gift, not an office. Similarly the gift of seership is not an office, but a gift bestowed by God, and requires God's showing to the recipient something before the gift is held. In the case of Mosiah, the gift included "miraculous interpreters" (Mosiah 8: 13), but in the case of Enoch, the Lord made the gift reside within his body (Moses 6: 35-36). Likewise, translation of ancient languages to preserve truth previously lost to mankind is a gift from God, not an office.

When the LDS Church claims its presiding authorities are "prophets, seers and revelators" I took no issue with the claim, but understood this to be descriptive of a hope, or ambition, to be given by God as a gift to them if God willed to do so. I presumed sustaining them as "prophets, seers and revelators" did not empower them to make the claim to possess these gifts in the absence of God bestowing them. Therefore, I awaited God's hand to vindicate the expectancy, never dreaming that by merely voting I could elevate a mere man to possess what is God's right alone to give.

There is no official "creed" given to us by Joseph Smith. He advised all to search into God's mysteries: "I advise all to go on to perfection, and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness." (TPJS p. 364.) I have done that, and believe all should do likewise. No institution can do this for me, or for you. It is up to each of us to practice this faith.

I believe everyone ought to practice a living, fruitful faith by reconnecting to the True Vine, because it is only through Christ we are able to do anything. When any soul reconnects to Christ, they are alive in Him and should do as Christ would have them do. If this puts you into conflict with an institution, then I believe it is our duty to obey Christ and endure the insults, rejection and turmoil which follows.

When I joined the LDS Church I literally sacrificed all I knew before. My family and closest friends were all anti-Mormon. When I joined, I lost their friendship. Although I succeeded in reconciling with many of them, it was a difficult process taking years.

When I found Christ, I was threatened with the loss of everything I had come to know during the 40 years of membership in the LDS Church. I was even confronted by a Stake President's threat of the "spiritual demise" of "my family" if I did not relent from doing as Christ asked of me. After 40 years of building a new life as a Latter-day Saint, once again I was threatened with the sacrifice of all I knew and enjoyed. It was no easier the second time than it was the first. There are a lot of lies about me, and false claims attributed to me.

I believe "that a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation; for, from the first existence of man, the faith necessary unto the enjoyment of life and salvation never could be obtained without the sacrifice of all earthly things. It was through this sacrifice, and this only, that God has ordained that men should enjoy eternal life; and it is through the medium of the sacrifice of all earthly things that men do actually know that they are doing the things that are well pleasing in the sight of God." (Lectures on Faith, Lecture 6, par. 7.) Because I have made these sacrifices, I have been called "proud" and "stubborn" and filled with "self will and ambition." Nothing could be further from the truth. I mourn my losses, but believe they were made in obedience to Christ. Therefore I endure this, while wishing it were otherwise.

I have come to realize that criticism can be used by the Lord to accomplish what He wants to happen. There are many Latter-day Saints who will now read what I have written just because I was excommunicated. More has been done by that action to spread knowledge of what I believe than anything I have done. It stimulates curiosity and interest.

The LDS Church was entirely within its right to excommunicate me, and any of its members it considers unwanted. It is free to teach, advocate and alter what it does without any interference from me. I do not dissent from it, or hope in any way to change it or its course. That is between it and God. But likewise I claim the right to continue as I began, and believe in the faith restored through Joseph Smith and practice it according to the dictates of my conscience.

I likewise believe the LDS Church members who now spew venom against me are free to do so. They are not likely to persuade anyone by such tactics. I think the truth is more resilient than a lie.

If there were one scripture I could commend to my LDS critics it would be this: "And now I say unto you, Refrain from [this man], and let [him] alone: for if this counsel of this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God." (Acts 5: 38-39.)

Be Wise

Why did Zion fail in Joseph’s day? How can we avoid that today? In almost every respect we are no better than those in Joseph’s time, and unfortunately in most respects we are not as good as they were. The only advantage we have is their failure. Provided, of course, we will learn from it. Their failure gives us great insight into what does not and cannot work.

The Lord counsels us to not attempt anything involving Zion in “haste.” But we are also told to be diligent. (See, e.g., D&C 59: 3-4.)

Read this advice from the Lord as if it were given to you about your day:
Verily I say unto you who have assembled yourselves together that you may learn my will concerning the redemption of mine afflicted people— Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now. But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them; And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom; And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself. And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer. I speak not concerning those who are appointed to lead my people, who are the first elders of my church, for they are not all under this condemnation; But I speak concerning my churches abroad—there are many who will say: Where is their God? Behold, he will deliver them in time of trouble, otherwise we will not go up unto Zion, and will keep our moneys. Therefore, in consequence of the transgressions of my people, it is expedient in me that mine elders should wait for a little season for the redemption of Zion— That they themselves may be prepared, and that my people may be taught more perfectly, and have experience, and know more perfectly concerning their duty, and the things which I require at their hands. And this cannot be brought to pass until mine elders are endowed with power from on high. For behold, I have prepared a great endowment and blessing to be poured out upon them, inasmuch as they are faithful and continue in humility before me. Therefore it is expedient in me that mine elders should wait for a little season, for the redemption of Zion. For behold, I do not require at their hands to fight the battles of Zion; for, as I said in a former commandment, even so will I fulfil—I will fight your battles. (D&C 105: 1-14.)

Now go back and read D&C 101: 1-68. Remember the greatest challenge to prepare beforehand is the hearts of the people who are to gather. There is no reason to gather to fail again. Without appropriate preparation of people beforehand, angels will not gather them in. (D&C 77: 11.)

Zeal and haste will prevent Zion from coming and will destroy it if it's here.

1 June 1830

On the 1st of June, 1830 a small meeting was held by about thirty people who comprised the church. The meeting was in a home. During the meeting Newel Knight was carried away in a vision. Only Brother Knight had the vision, but Joseph accepted it as true and had it put into the history.

Here is what Newel Knight's visionary experience included:

"He saw heaven opened and beheld the Lord Jesus Christ, sitting [at] the right hand of the Majesty on high, and had it made plain to his understanding that the time would come when he should be admitted into his presence to enjoy his society for ever and ever." (JS Papers: Histories Vol. 1, p. 388, Draft 1; punctuation and insertions as in original.)

That example shows how open Joseph Smith was to allowing others to both receive revelations and for their revelations to be regarded as authentic and trustworthy. Joseph trusted in this visionary experience of Brother Newel Knight so much it was included in Joseph's history.

This experience would be described as Brother Knight's calling and election being made sure, since it includes the promise from God that he (Bro. Knight) will be able to enjoy Christ and the Father's "society for ever and ever."

It is not regarded as "too sacred" to discuss.

It is not regarded as impudent to have a visionary experience apart from Joseph.

It did not excite Joseph's jealousy or condemnation, but inspired his confidence and faith.

It happened in a home, although it was a church meeting. No church buildings existed among the Saints during Joseph's lifetime, other than the Kirtland Temple. The people met in homes or outside during Joseph's lifetime.

Can't we build a bridge?

There is a gulf between two views regarding Mormonism which makes it very difficult for us to speak and understand each other. This gulf is problematic because it labels one group as blind and the other as faithless. It is possible to hold either view and still be very believing, committed and prayerful. Therefore, it is wrong to accuse one another.

Below is a contrast between the two sides illustrated by the extreme. There are shades between the extremes, but the extremes are the best way to illustrate the separation:

I call the first position the “brethrenites” because it is a shorthand way to capture the view: These Mormons believe that everything done since the death of Joseph Smith through Brigham Young and successors in the Presidency and Twelve of the LDS Church has been entirely conforming to God’s will. They believe “keys” were passed and, as a result, these successors control God’s power and can seal on earth and in heaven. They believe the statements made by the successors are invariably in the status of “prophet, seer and revelator” and therefore inspired by God (or binding upon Him by reason of the “keys” held). The general authorities are able to give binding statements as mentioned in D&C 1: 38. They speak the "mind of the Lord" as described in D&C 68: 4. As  part of this construct, any criticism of the Brethren is by definition ‘evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed’ and therefore criticism is apostasy. These people also believe the scriptures are secondary to a “living oracle” and therefore the scriptures are not as important as whatever the president of the church says now.

I call the second position the residue [of the saints]. These people believe the Book of Mormon and Joseph’s Smith divine calling, but do not agree that everything that began with Brigham Young conformed to God's will. They believe the Lord spoke to this generation through Joseph (D&C 5: 10) and it was binding on everyone, including all subsequent leaders and members. They are skeptical of the claims to “keys” and authority, and believe the leaders after Joseph are not his equal. They believe the scriptures hold a higher priority than church authorities and when the scriptures are contradicted, the advice or direction can be safely ignored. They do not think criticism is evil or apostasy, but believe all who claim to believe in the Restoration through Joseph Smith are similarly bound to accept the Lord’s will through Joseph until the Lord decides to call another like Joseph (if He does).

When the brethrenites quote long passages from Talmage, McConkie, Grant, Brown, Widstoe, Lund or Romney to make a point, it has no persuasive impact on the residue. Likewise, when the residue quote the scriptures, it does not persuade the brethrenites as long as there is something contrary from Snow, Young, Taylor or Pratt. The arguments that one side believes should settle a question never succeeds in persuading the other because the underlying assumptions are so very different. Until the different groups decide to agree on what matters, what defines the faith, and whose statements carry authority and weight, there can be no agreement.

This is an odd gulf confronting Mormonism, because the brethrenites quote Eph. 4: 11-13 (leaders given to bring "unity of faith") and the residue believe D&C 38: 27 ("if ye are not one ye are not mine"). Both ends believe sincerely in their position.

To the Brethrenites, I would pose this question: If apostles and prophets were given to bring "unity of faith" why do the doctrines differ so greatly between Brigham Young and Thomas Monson? What is this "in the absence of revelation" that changes very important doctrines?

To the residue, I would pose this question: If you believe your position, why do you remain silent in sacrament meeting, sunday school, priesthood, relief society and ym/yw classes? (Your position will never unify Mormons if the strength of your position goes unarticulated.)

Altered

In response to a question about whether my views have changed since I wrote The Second Comforter, I would say they have in some respects and have not in others. I do not intend to write a new edition and change what I wrote there. Believing Latter-day Saints should faithfully follow their religion. I was cast out of the church, and therefore have no reason to follow it lock-step any longer. But I do not resent the church, want back in, or hope to change it.

Even though the LDS Church is working very hard to put its leaders between the members and the Lord, I think a faithful, believing Latter-day Saint can endure that abuse while still honoring God. Christ did as much in His lifetime, and He is the great example. When you pass through all the rites of the LDS Church it begins and ends at almost the same point. The starting point is believing Joseph Smith, inspired by James 1:5, asked God and received an answer--and you can too. The ending point involves an ordinance which promises you further light and knowledge by conversing with the Lord through the veil. Both at the beginning and the end of the LDS journey you are told to speak with God and expect an answer. If not for my belief in this promise, and the LDS Church's teaching of it, I do not believe I would ever have conversed with God. So even now I see the LDS Church as having great value to its faithful members who can grow closer to God despite the foolishness of its Correlation program and distorted elevation of mere men.

The energy and light given through Joseph Smith powers the LDS Church still today. Even though the church's leadership want to disregard, ignore, and even violate Joseph's teachings, they still benefit from his original ministry.

One of the clearest moments in LDS Church history came on August 8, 1844. Joseph was dead. There were multiple contenders to lead the church in the leadership vacuum left by Joseph and Hyrum's murders. When the critical moment arrived, the church took a profound, irreversible step. The church which was founded by revelation, proclaimed it was led by revelation, and held itself out as "true and living" because it was led by a prophet who received revelation, chose at that moment to ignore revelation. No one argued the choice should be made by God and then revealed to the church. Instead the church held an election and voted the 12 into power. At that moment the church decided to vote for its destiny, instead of letting God reveal to her His choice. Under the new direction Nauvoo was abandoned, the Saints fled into the wilderness, suffered, endured misery, were abused and blamed by the leaders for the leaders' failures, and received chastening from an unimpressed God.

Although the Saints descended into a salty wasteland, the discovery of gold in California, the railroad and the convenience of a mid-mountain stopover helped them to survive. With time and a larger American economy in the midst of an Industrial Revolution, the church was likewise elevated economically and politically. Each step along the way the church positioned itself to benefit until now it is a powerful, multi-billion dollar enterprise with political, economic and social clout to protect itself from ever again enduring the early embarrassments and persecutions. It has diversified its product line from merely the "Mormon" religion, and has vast real estate, cattle, farming, business, banking, housing, educational, employment, television, radio, satellite, and other ventures. With all its leaders must manage, there is little time for and increasingly less attention given to the religion Joseph Smith was restoring. It is becoming increasingly clear to those who study the faith that it has undergone drastic changes since June 27, 1844. Those changes make the LDS Church much more like the rest of the world's religions, and less like the revolution begun by God through Joseph.

I'm not sure the LDS Church today is even the same one I joined in 1973. I am certain it is not the same one Joseph Smith restored.

When I first joined the LDS Church there was a Presiding Patriarch sustained as a "Prophet, Seer and Revelator" in General Conference, which I understood was required for a fully organized church. He was subsequently released, his office left unfilled, and he has now died.

When I first became LDS the temple rites included roles, penalties and signs (I did not then understand) but which have subsequently been eliminated or changed.

When I first became LDS priesthood was restricted (which I hated but accepted), subsequently removed.

When I first became LDS there were 70's in every Ward who were regarded as having a distinct office, which has now been eliminated, confined to General Authorities, who are all now High Priests, the office of 70 having been essentially eliminated.

When I first became LDS doctrine mattered, scriptures were used as the primary source of teaching, and General Conference talks were not re-read in Sacrament, Priesthood, Relief Society and Sunday School as the basis of lessons, unlike today. The adoration of church leaders is now almost the only "religion" practiced. Jesus Christ is a nominally mentioned party, appended at the end of talks and testimonies, as if mentioning Him at the end certifies everything remains His.

When I first became LDS we twice had the Sacrament blessed and passed each Sunday, we discussed openly the "mysteries" and had a very different Spirit within the community. There is a harshness to the LDS Church, and a hardness in its members which wasn't there in 1973.

The list of changes is now over 120 items long and I won't lay them out here. It isn't important to do so. In the dedication of The Second Comforter I wrote: "Dedicated to the 'few who are the humble followers of Christ.' (2 Ne. 28: 14.)" I hoped readers would go look that verse up and read it, and the surrounding verses. If they do they will read this description:

"Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up. They rob the poor because of their fine sancturaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up. They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are teh humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men." (2 Ne. 28: 12-14.)

The dedication at the beginning of The Second Comforter was deliberate. I have recognized the truth for many, many years. But I honored every obligation I took upon myself. I have only joined one church organization in my life: the LDS Church. I am grateful to it and would not have left when they excommunicated me. But that does not mean I wasn't alarmed by what I saw the leaders doing to alter and misshape the church. I tried to be meek, and still to be so. Now, however, I am entirely free to be meek in relation to the Lord alone, and no longer need to be anything but a "humble follower of Christ" (to use Nephi's description). It is no longer necessary to be "led, that in many instances [I will] err because of the precepts of men." I can look to the Lord alone, and forget institutional demands on my attention, time and thought. Or, as our Lord once put it: I can be about my Father's business.

Name Calling

I have been called, among other choice words, "apostate" by some LDS folks in their indiscriminate, anonymous on-line rants. Name-calling by Latter-day Saints is a complete role reversal from where the Restoration began. When Joseph Smith was being abused by the religionists of his day, he observed “they treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt, saying it was all of the devil. That there were no such things as visions or revelations in these days; that all such things [were confined to and the sole right of] the apostles.” (JS-H 1: 21.) The people who rejected Joseph’s beliefs were rejecting the Bible itself, which they pretended was the basis for their faith. Joseph did what James 1: 5 instructed him to do, and got an answer. That is the faith he restored: A living faith in which God will speak to all who, like me, lack wisdom, liberally. I lack wisdom. I go to God with questions. So long as any of us ask in faith, He will answer. I know. He has answered me. Now Latter-day Saints think it is their right to denounce others who have asked God, and have been answered. If Latter-day Saints do possess the truth, then for those they think in error should be met with kindness, not reviling. (See JS-H 1: 25.) “If they suppose me to be deluded they ought to endeavor in a proper and affectionate manner to reclaim me.” (JS-H 1: 28.) Instead I read the accusation I am “apostate” by these smug Latter-day Saints. It must put a smile on the faces of authority and the devil. These disciples pretend to follow Joseph's restored religion while acting the part of his persecutors. The saints have come full circle indeed.

Where exactly do you draw the line and begin to denounce others as “apostate?”

If we both believe in the Book of Mormon, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?”

If we both believe Joseph Smith was called of God to restore the Gospel, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?”

If we both accept the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price as scripture, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?”

If we both believe in continuing revelation and that God has yet to reveal a great deal as part of the Restoration of all, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?”

If we have all of the foregoing in common, is that enough to respect one another as fellow-believers? Or do you require much more of me than I can give in order to avoid being denounced by you? How much do you want to micromanage my beliefs? Do you ever feel any twinge of concern about not permitting others to worship “according to the dictates of their conscience, and allow others the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may?” (Paraphrase of 11^th Article of Faith)

If I believe priesthood has no authority over me, and you believe as Elder Oaks declared from general conference that the “keys” are the right to exercise authority, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?” What if my belief is based on the scripture “no power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood” which I hold in higher regard than a declaration from a church official to the contrary? (See D&C121: 41)

If I believe the Lectures on Faith are still scripture, but you do not, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?”

If I believe the LDS Church has changed dramatically in my lifetime, and even more since Joseph Smith died, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?”

If I believe the scriptures were given to control and govern the faith, and you believe whatever comes from living church officials can contradict or disregard the words of scripture, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?” If I can tolerate your view in this regard, even if I do not share it, are we of the same faith or is one of us “apostate?” If I use the scriptures and you use the scriptures, why are your views correct and mine incorrect? How did we arrive at the odd position that you get to call me “apostate” for believing the scriptures differently than you do? If you trust that “keys” are the thing that guarantees you salvation, what exactly are the “keys,” allowed by scripture, that bear that out?

If I will let you go in peace, why cannot you let me go likewise in peace. The LDS church is an institution of this world, not of the next. We should care less for the things of this world than we do. I am very content with my faith in God, and very much in harmony with everything He has asked of me. If you believe the same about yourself, then let that be your assurance and have the confidence to leave me to go my way in peace. Practice your beliefs in the way you think God wants, and I will do the same.

I will never again submit to another man’s priestly claim to dominion, control, judgment or oppression. It was denounced in scripture, and I reject such things. (D&C 121: 36-42.) If you think there is a priest who has the right to demand things of you in exchange for saving you using some “key,”  I do not share your belief, but I am perfectly willing to respect you if that is yours. Happy is the man who serves his God in faith and conviction. Happier still is the man whose God is Christ and therefore respects his right to voluntarily act for himself, accepting full accountability for his beliefs, and not expecting man to save him using authority to do so.

If, by your definition, I am “apostate,” then let me assure you I am content to be so. I am fully willing to accept whatever Christ’s judgment is for being so. More importantly, I am entirely satisfied I remain in harmony with what God expects of me, and I wish the same for you.

Grand Junction Transcript - Zion

The transcript for the Grand Junction lecture is now up on Scribd. The link is on the blog under the sidebar DS Talks on the right of the blog. Scribd is free. It just requires that you create an account. You do not have to pay to read Denver's lectures on Scribd. I know there are some limitations, but eventually we will look into other options.

Abraham's Sons

Last night I was awakened by this:

Did not Ishmael and Isaac mourn together and bury their father Abraham? Was not their father's blood precious unto them both?

Does not the blood of Abraham run in both Isaac and Ishmael? Does not the blood of Abraham run in both Esau and Jacob?

Let Ishmael today find the blood of his father, Abraham, precious still. Let Isaac likewise today find the blood of his father, Abraham, precious again. For Abraham's sake, let all the brothers who descend from Abraham now mourn when Abraham's blood is spilled by any of his descendants.

If Abraham's sons do not find his blood to be precious still, there remains nothing between them but the shedding of Abraham's blood. For all his sons who fail to find Abraham's blood to be precious will be held to account by God, who will judge between the sons of Isaac and the sons of Ishmael, the sons of Esau and the sons of Jacob for father Abraham's sake, with whom God covenanted.

The sons of Abraham will not be permitted to continue this disregard of their common father's blood without provoking God, who will soon judge between Abraham's sons.

Elder Oaks' General Conference Talk

I am trying to understand Elder Oaks' talk. Taking everything he said at face value, here is what I think he said:

1. Women don't hold the priesthood.

2. Those who hold "keys" can give assignments to others who then act under the authority of the priesthood of the key-holder.

3. In the temple sisters use the authority of the priesthood to perform washings and anointings, inasmuch as they were set apart by key-holders.

4. Therefore women use the authority of the priesthood.

From this it can be surmised: Sister missionaries will be able to baptize some day using the authority of the priesthood of a key-holder. This talk was designed to accomplish what the "Ordain Women" movement wants by approaching it in two steps rather than one. It is de facto ordination, incrementally adopted by careful measures.

A Covenant With the King

King Benjamin had an an objective. Better said, the angel of the Lord had an objective in mind when the king was told what to teach. The objective is more fully explained once the people had received the lesson.

“And now, it came to pass that when king Benjamin had thus spoken to his people, he sent among them, desiring to know of his people if they believed the words which he had spoken unto them. And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually. And we, ourselves, also, through the infinite goodness of God, and the manifestations of his Spirit, have great views of that which is to come; and were it expedient, we could prophesy of all things. And it is the faith which we have had on the things which our king has spoken unto us that has brought us to this great knowledge, whereby we do rejoice with such exceedingly great joy. And we are willing to enter into a covenant with our God to do his will, and to be obedient to his commandments in all things that he shall command us, all the remainder of our days, that we may not bring upon ourselves a never-ending torment, as has been spoken by the angel, that we may not drink out of the cup of the wrath of God.” (Mosiah 5: 1-5.)

Here is the covenant-making King Benjamin had as his assignment. The Lord saves, but uses covenant-making as a part of His process. We don’t get to make covenants, but we do get to accept them if the Lord offers them to us. It must be the Lord’s offer and our acceptance for it to have effect. Here the words that were recited by the congregation were the words King Benjamin had asked them to accept: “And now, these are the words which king Benjamin desired of them;” (Mosiah 5: 6.) Meaning they were exactly what they’d been asked to accept as the new covenant.

King Benjamin’s record continues: “and therefore he said unto them: Ye have spoken the words that I desired; and the covenant which ye have made is a righteous covenant. And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.” (Mosiah 5: 6-7.) This was the object. To extend the Family of God by adding sons and daughters. King Benjamin’s ministry was producing fruit suitable to be laid up against the harvest (as Jacob quoted Zenos to describe).

King Benjamin expounds on the central role Christ plays in our salvation. Only by connecting ourselves to Him will we be able to qualify for what He (as our Father) has to offer. “And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives.” (Mosiah 5: 8.) Or, in other words, we always remember Him that we may always have His spirit to be with us.

He continues: “And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ. And now it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall not take upon him the name of Christ must be called by some other name; therefore, he findeth himself on the left hand of God.” (Mosiah 5: 9-10.) Since Christ is the prototype of the saved man, all who would be saved must likewise be qualified to hold this same status or be called by this same name.

King Benjamin’s religion is like the one Joseph Smith was restoring. He offered his people an authorized covenant with the King, established by heaven through King Benjamin. It is remarkable how much of the deepest Gospel truths are found in the Book of Mormon.

Throw my hands up

Today is the last day of my last temple recommend. The church didn't ask me to return it. I'm qualified to have it. But it will expire today. It can't be renewed, of course.

I was asked by a young fellow about sustaining leaders in the upcoming general conference. I replied, "the Lorde recently said: "I'm kind of over gettin' told to throw my hands up in the air, So there."

Grand Junction Lecture

Where:
Grand Vista Hotel Ballroom
2790 Crossroads Blvd.
Grand Junction, CO 81506

When: Saturday, April 12, 2014 @ 9:30 a.m.

Seating: 125

The Poor

King Benjamin does not concern himself with all the ways it is possible to get it wrong. (Mosiah 4: 29.) Mankind gets it wrong all the time. The great challenge is to finally get it right. His sermon is an attempt to lay out how a society may finally overcome the failures and draw close to God. Individual righteousness is a rare thing in this world, but it happens more frequently than societal righteousness. King Benjamin’s talk is about societal success, or social righteousness.

Once converted, the work begins. The work, as we have seen, involves eradicating poverty by helping the needy. We are forbidden from turning away the beggar. We are forbidden from judging them. We have but one duty toward them; that is to help them.

His sermon continues: “And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give.” (Mosiah 4: 24.) Even the poor are required to have a charitable heart. They may lack the means, but they cannot lack the heart. All society must have a disposition to help one another.

Unless we are willing to render aid to one another, we cannot possibly become one. Until we view the circumstances of the least member of the community from their vantage point, we cannot become one. It isn’t possible to bear one another’s burdens when we are oblivious to the burdens they bear. Alma would preach this as a requirement to be baptized. (See Mosiah 18: 8-10.) Until we are like-minded we don’t even qualify for the ordinance offered by Alma.

The Book of Mormon speaks of  the ideals that condemn us because we do not even recognize them. Even if we pretend to share the religion of those of the Book of Mormon, our social order is far from what the book preaches.

King Benjamin continues: “And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received.” (Mosiah 4: 25.) Here is a failure so significant it absolutely prevents Zion. Coveting is a vile personal failure, and so foreign to becoming “one” as a people, that it is condemned in the Ten Commandments. (See Ex. 20: 17.) It prevents us from being equal. Equality is required for Zion.

When the Restoration was led by Joseph Smith, the Lord cautioned the early believers that they were required to be equal in temporal things. Because they refused to do so, they forfeited the Spiritual manifestations which necessarily accompany Zion. “Nevertheless, in your temporal things you shall be equal, and this not grudgingly, otherwise the abundance of the manifestations of the Spirit shall be withheld.” (D&C 70: 14.) They failed. We do not even attempt it. We probably shouldn’t attempt it until we first repent and receive the faith the Lord once attempted to restore through Joseph Smith.

When Joseph was still ministering, the Lord foretold of a great work to be done. This work was the Lord’s to do, but even the mention of it inspired eagerness by the early converts. When hints of Zion emerged in Joseph’s prophecies, the Saints thought it was their right to have it immediately, and without the necessary patience and diligence that must precede it. They hastened to the center spot, where, as a result of the Indian Relocation Act enforced by Andrew Jackson, all Native Americans had been relocated. The line between the Indians and whites was drawn on the western border of Missouri. All eastern Indians, from Maine to Florida, had been resettled in the Indian Territory. The center of their population was, at that moment, Independence, Missouri. If the Indians were going to be taught, there was one center spot available for access by white missionaries. It was in Independence, Missouri. When Mormons attempted to cross the line and preach inside the Indian Territory, they were threatened with arrest and transport to Fort Levenworth, Kansas. At that brief moment in time, the closest they could locate to the target audience was Independence, Missouri.

By June 1844, when Joseph Smith was leaving to seek out the Remnant, the Indians had long since left the former relocation area. They were then scattered westward. Hence Joseph’s plan to go to the Rocky Mountains to find the Remnant and build the New Jerusalem.

When the Mormon missionaries located the then-closest, center spot the eager Saints filed into the area. Even if they had the right location at that moment, they were unqualified to be there. Had they followed King Benjamin’s sermon, they would have had a better chance. Instead they were anything but converted in their hearts to the kind of principles which would allow people to live in harmony with one another.

Here is how the Lord characterized the 1830's ruinous attempt to steal Zion: “Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings, and contentions, and envyings, and strifes, and lustful and covetous desires among them; therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.” (D&C 101: 6.) Once again, covetousness in the heart is prohibited in Zion. Though the Lord may have given them a potential inheritance, they squandered it.

King Benjamin’s sermon is about the ideal. It is what the heart should have within it for the man or woman to be able to live with others equally. We will fail, like all others have failed, if we are unable to first remove the impediments within our hearts. What good would be accomplished in any age to gather together people who are unwilling to be one, unable to live in harmony with one another. We have that society already. The mantra we recite to overcome the vast inequalities and dissimilarities among us in our fractured society is “tolerance” and “non-judgment.” These are as likely to invite evil as good.

Cease to be covetous and lustful. Have a disposition to no longer do evil, but to do good. Give to those in need and succor those who you are able to succor. Then you have some chance to avoid jarring one another, contending and envying one another. There is no reason for the Lord to gather anyone until everyone He would gather has the attributes taught by King Benjamin in their hearts. Once that is done, there will be time enough to gather. But if you gather together and there is but one among you with a covetous, lustful and envious heart, there can be no Zion.

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As Soon As Converted...

As soon as his people covenanted with God to receive their redemption through the atonement of Christ, King Benjamin's attention turns to the needs of the poor. He taught those who were converted to think of the needs of others.

This is what James would call "pure religion" (see James 1: 27; see also James 2: 14-18) because it changes the world, here and now. Instead of suffering, the unfortunate are ministered to by others because their religion requires it of them. King Benjamin's instruction to those who covenanted with God to apply the atonement on their behalf was: "ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of you succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish." (Mosiah 4: 16.)

There was no room for judging the needy. There was only the obligation to give. As he counseled: "Perhaps thou shalt say: the man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor  impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just--" (Mosiah 4: 17.) Maybe the beggars in your life deserve to suffer. Maybe it is their fault. Maybe they shouldn't have used drugs, or behaved so poorly they lost their jobs, or run away from home and family who would have cared for them if they hadn't strayed, or any number of other circumstances to conclude "their punishments are just." Maybe they are all at fault. Maybe they do deserve your condemnation, not your help. Maybe you are facilitating their wickedness. Maybe you are enabling their irresponsibility. Yes, maybe you shouldn't help, after all...

King Benjamin anticipates this and warns you: "But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this  the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perish forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God." (Mosiah 4: 18.) If you judge the beggar this way, even if you are right about their "punishments" being "just," then you have need to repent. You have no right to do this. You will not be forgiven by God, and cannot enter His kingdom. You are to help the beggar. That is all.

"For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?" (Mosiah 4: 19.) You occupy the same relationship to God as the beggar occupies to you. If you have the ability to help, then you must. You only have what you possess in this life as a result of God's mercy and kindness to you. Therefore, even if you think you "deserve" what you own because you worked hard for it, you are nevertheless a beggar whose very existence is drawing upon God's power to live, and move and have your being. (Mosiah 2: 21.)

King Benjamin warned us: "if ye judge the man who putteth up his  petition to you... and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God. ...I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him." (Mosiah 4: 22-23.)

This has been in our Book of Mormon since 1830. But we hear the only way we are to help the poor should be through Fast Offerings, institutionalizing our charity. I doubt that would satisfy King Benjamin. I doubt there will be collective salvation. I'm certain there is no such thing as group-charity sufficient to qualify you to avoid individual condemnation for refusing the beggar who asks you individually to help.

Remember this is the subject addressed by King Benjamin to those who have entered into a covenant with God to obtain a remission of their sins.

The Gospel's Effect

The people King Benjamin addressed were brought to repentance, but it is the record of their repentance that is so relevant to us today. Keep in mind that King Benjamin's record was originally composed about a century and a quarter before Christ. At that time the Law of Moses was in effect. The version we have in the Book of Mormon was abridged by Mormon about four centuries after Christ. Therefore, we have a record which is both pre- and post- Christ. Mormon's abridgment was intended, however, for a latter-day audience. He saw our day. Before finishing his father's record, his son, Moroni, described us in detail and even foretold that those whose religion would be based on his record would not only pollute God's holy church, but would use it as the means of "getting gain." (Mormon 8: 33-38.) Mormon also knew his civilization was passing away as he made his abridgment. (Mormon 6: 1.) I conclude that the account of the repentance process was primarily intended as a message to the latter-day gentiles who would receive the record.

King Benjamin's audience cried out in prayer this petition to God: "O have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be purified; for we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who created heaven and earth, and all things; who shall come down among the children of men." (Mosiah 4: 2.) What strikes me about this prayer is that today we would identify this with the Evangelical/Born Again Christian approach to a religious experience. It is a confession of belief coupled with a request for forgiveness. Latter-day Saints belittle this approach. We claim that much more is needed, including certain authoritative rites and ordinances. Ultimately, that may be part of God's plan, and certainly Christ's own example informs us that baptism was required even of Him "to fulfill all righteousness." (Matt. 3: 13-15.) But the ordinances are signposts that provide an outward proof of inward change. Here, in the account of King Benjamin, we have the focus entirely upon the inward change. This is the "weighter" part of the process. Christ condemned those who observed the ordinances, but failed to exercise mercy and faith; the inward target of the outward observance. (See, e.g., Matt. 23: 23.) There is some considerable peril in being too proud of your ordinances. They have displaced the inward, weightier part of the Gospel in past dispensations, and certainly can do so again. Satan has no new tricks. The old ones seem to work so well, there is little reason to introduce some new road for apostasy. Pride in ordinances as the ticket for salvation works every time it is tried. It's a little thing, but little things count when the measurement is taken against perfection.

The effect of this inward change of heart is also recorded in King Benjamin's account. It is the universal evidence which comes from God to all those who find saving grace. "The Spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins, and having peace of conscience, because of the exceeding faith which they had in Jesus Christ who should come, according to the words which King Benjamin had spoken unto them." (Mosiah 4: 3.) From this we learn:

-The Spirit of the Lord is the testifier and witness of salvation (witnessing to the saved)
-There is joy when you receive the Spirit
-Sins are remitted, because the Spirit cannot dwell in unclean vessels (the vessel is cleansed)
-Your conscience is clear because you no longer carry your sins
-All of this is the product of faith
-Faith comes as a consequence of being ministered to by one authorized by God, as was King Benjamin.

That last point was one which Joseph Smith also taught. Joseph said: "Whenever men can find out the will of God and find an administrator legally authorized from God, there is the kingdom of God, but where these are not, the kingdom of God is not. All the ordinances, systems, and administrations on the earth are of no use to the children of men, unless they are ordained and authorized of God; for nothing will save a man but a legal administrator; for none others will be acknowledged either by God or angels." (TPJS, p. 274.) It is for this reason that King Benjamin and Mormon include the final ingredient in verse 3: "according to the words which king Benjamin had spoken unto them." They heard the truth from one sent by God, had faith in Christ as a consequence of that, believed, asked and experienced the fruit of conversion. This is how Christ's Gospel works. (Romans 10: 17.)

The Gospel, when it makes its brief appearances upon the earth, comes in the same way as we find recorded in this record of King Benjamin. Those who receive the message, believing it to be from God, having faith to ask God for their part in Christ's atonement, can likewise receive their own inward confirmation; their own experience akin to that described in Mosiah 4: 3.

An unchanging God has an unchanging Gospel. Rather than taking pride in your ordinances, view yourself in your lost and fallen state. Start there, and rebuild your faith through repentance. Once you've cleansed the inward part, there will be time to worry about the outward later.

Themes, Truth and Scripture

There is a great work left undone. The field has been abandoned and there is no harvesting taking place. We are all required to repent first, then to learn something before we attempt to teach others.

In doing the work I have been asked to do, I am relaying what I have been instructed needs to be taught to this generation at this time for the Lord's promises to be fulfilled. That requires time, and experience, and careful and ponderous and solemn thought to be given to the Lord's design. Although I do not consider myself equal to the task, I am nevertheless doing what little I am able to do as part of the Lord's work.

To the best of my ability, I seek only to lay out what should be noted about our present challenges. I do my best to avoid a fanciful, or flowery or heated imagination in discussing salvation. While others may do so, I do not intend to trifle with the souls of men.

Joseph Smith's counsel is appropriate and guides my thought on these things: "A fanciful and flowery and heated imagination beware of; because the things of God are of deep import; and time, and experience, and careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts can only find them out. Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity-thou must commune with God. How much more dignified and noble are the thoughts of God, than the vain imaginations of the human heart! None but fools will trifle with the souls of men." (TPJS p. 137.) I have never trifled with men's souls.

I have never given any one permission to speak for me, use my name to support their cause, or advocate using me as their source to make their ideas or teachings credible. If someone has a good idea, it should stand on its own. It should be reasonable. If an idea is so weak and fanciful, then associating my name, Joseph Smith's name, or some general authority's name with it should not overcome the weakness of the idea.  I do not believe in citing any authority other than scripture and Joseph Smith. Check the books I've written and talks I've given. Check my blog. There you can find what is true, taken from the authority of scripture. It is self-evident and capable of standing on its own. The truth I advocate is so self-supporting that I need to make no claim to authority.  

Yes, doubt everything other than truth taken from the scriptures.  They are the standard by which I teach.

Because this generation does not understand their precarious situation, they are unable to repent. But it is only repentance which can save some few souls. People are so quickly and easily drawn away from the challenge to repent before God into some other vain and foolish track. That is necessary, however, because in Joseph's day we failed in Kirtland, failed again in Missouri, failed in Nauvoo and then lost Joseph. In Brigham's day we failed in Salt Lake. The effort to save great numbers has not and will not work. There have always been comparatively few who have the patience and devotion to allow the Lord to do His work. Men and women charge into the upward pass and are slain by the beast who guards the way generation after generation, while God works patiently to save some few. In the meantime, if great numbers can be persuaded to wander off or charge impatiently, then so be it. Had they remained, they would have spoiled what lies at the top of the mountain. It is better, therefore, that they be taken in their vanity than to bring it with them into a society where such things would be ruinous.

King Benjamin is a more important topic for today than ever. But I get a flood of emails and comments asking about other, ridiculously extraneous things propounded by others using my name for credibility. You should already know enough to determine on your own the significance or insignificance of these side show issues. If you do not, then you deserve your confusion. You are on trial here. You must grow to stand on your own. Do not be dependent on me or any man for your knowledge of the truth. You must be able, by the power of the light given to you, to decide between truth and error, between what comes from God and what is of men and devils. If you are unable to determine that for yourself, then relying on others will never qualify you to enter into the Lord's rest.

We have gotten to the reaction of King Benjamin's people to his sermon. They were brought to repentance. But we have not yet taken a look at the overall setting wherein King Benjamin taught. Nephi established a line of prophet/priests to whom was given the charge to teach the people. That line's work is recorded in the Small Plates of Nephi. At about the same distance in time from Nephi as we find ourselves from Joseph Smith, we read on the Small Plates of Nephi: "I know of no revelation save that which has been written, neither prophecy..." (Omni 1: 11.) I've discussed this in Eighteen Verses.

The prophetic line ended in silence. Whole generations record only one verse, admitting their failure; then the Book of Mormon reignites with King Benjamin. After generations of dissipating the light and falling into darkness, he represents the return of the prophetic. He is a symbol of restoration, a type of how God reclaims His people when they err. By his day, the people were overcome again, and needed return to the faith that could save them.

But King Benjamin did not operate on his own. He taught only what had been given to him to teach by an angel. (Mosiah 2: 2-4; see also Mosiah 4: 1.) Because God renewed His covenant with King Benjamin, it was through King Benjamin that the people could once again make an acceptable covenant with God. The purpose of sending the angel to King Benjamin was not to offer him alone salvation, but to offer once again a valid covenant through which others could repent. (Mosiah 5: 5-7.)

This is how the Gospel works. Even the chosen people of Lehi and his son Nephi brought to the promised land failed to abide the conditions of the covenant. But God did not abandon them. When enough generations had passed to allow the Lord's hand to be revealed, then the Lord acted. The heavens were opened, the covenant was offered again, and souls were saved.

This is a great type. The Book of Mormon is far more relevant for our day than we imagine. It is a blueprint for how our own history is unfolding. It is a sobering lesson in how to fail and how to wait for the Lord to reclaim and redeem us.

We ignore or misunderstand the content of The Book of Mormon at the peril of our own salvation. When we do, then no one can be saved.

Your Only Hope

Contrast the reaction of King Benjamin’s audience with modern expectations and sensibilities. We want to hear smooth things. We want our self-image enhanced. We want stories that tell us we are good people in a good place doing good things and getting better every day. We want to feel reassured. King Benjamin’s audience felt threatened, unnerved and dismayed. They were reduced to fearful trembling, instead of hurrahs for their greatness. A sermon like the one King Benjamin delivered would drive the audience out the doors today.

Keep that in mind as you read the reaction recorded in Mosiah, Chapter 4: “when king Benjamin had made an end of speaking the words which had been delivered unto him by the angel of the Lord, that he cast his eyes round about on the multitude, and behold they had fallen to the earth, for the fear of the Lord had come upon them. And they had viewed themselves in their own carnal state, even less than the dust of the earth. And they all cried aloud with one voice, saying: O have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be purified; for we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who created heaven and earth, and all things; who shall come down among the children of men.” (Mosiah 4: 1-2.)

Fear had come upon them! They viewed themselves in their carnal state! They thought themselves less than the dust of the earth! They cried out for mercy! Interesting indeed!

No hymns were sung thanking God for a prophet-king to guide them. No hymns proclaiming that all is well, all is well. No praise to the man who shook their hearts and minds with fear. Instead, it was contrition and prayer for Christ’s atoning blood to remove their sins and purify their hearts.

We read this stuff but don’t recognize any contrast between ourselves and these earlier “saved” people. We think we’re like them. But we are not. We’re nothing like them in our faith, in our practices, in our humility and in our understanding of God’s plan of salvation. We are filled with pride and foolishness, leading one another about from vanity to trifles, like drunkards who vomit upon one another and then view the results as proof of our inspiration. (Isa. 28: 1-3.) We get angry at the idea we need repentance because we are not yet saved. Our anger is proof we have fallen for Satan's lies. (2 Ne. 28: 20.)

Joseph Smith decried the Saints of his day (with a lamentation that has increased in relevance in our own) with these words: “How vain and trifling have been our spirits, our conferences, our councils, our meetings, our private as well as public conversations—too low, too mean, too vulgar, too condescending for the dignified characters of the called and chosen of God. None but fools will trifle with the souls of men.” (TPJS, p.137.) If sermons were trifling in his day in ours they are vaccuous. This thin gruel cannot sustain us. Oddly, we are supposed to be constantly reminded of the need for spiritual nourishment to sustain life. When you participate in religious conventions dominated by theatrics, mood lighting and musical manipulation it is a substitute for the Spirit, not the Spirit itself. Theatrics are never an adequate substitute for Gospel substance. Everything money can buy can make an impressive show, but in the end it is just another example of how you can buy anything in this world for money. Being heart-warmed is not the same thing as being brought to repentance.

You will lose your soul if you seek foolishness instead of truth. Like King Benjamin’s audience, you should be afraid. Your only hope is through Christ.

King Benjamin's Faith

King Benjamin is great even as he proclaimed his weaknesses. Only a confident leader, secure in his worth before God can admit all King Benjamin admitted about his own weakness. Concerning his moral worth he declared: “I am like as yourselves, subject to all manner of infirmities in body and mind...” (Mosiah 2: 11.) Concerning his physical vitality he explained “For even at this time, my whole frame doth tremble exceedingly while attempting to speak unto you...” (Mosiah 2: 30.)

King Benjamin was not seeking admiration. He did not give his people reason to envy him, nor did he take wealth or support from them. He provided for himself and labored with his own hands; never imposing anything upon his people. He was a servant, though a king. He measured his life by what he gave others, not by what he received from them. (See Acts 20: 35.)

King Benjamin did not even deliver his own message. Instead, he taught what an angel told him to teach. “[T]he things which I shall tell you are made known unto me by an angel from God.” (Mosiah 3: 2.)

This was a meek king, whose own life modeled the life of the coming Savior about whom he testified. The testimony of his own weakness affirms King Benjamin's willingness to value service to others above self-interest.

How different from our leaders today was this ancient king! This model of meekness is so unlike the proud, the vain, the self-willed who lead today in government, education, religion, business and society. The contrast is so great that it helps us to understand why angels would minister to King Benjamin and the heavens are silent with leaders today. There simply is not a leader among us who is willing to give in sacrifice what is required to know God. King Benjamin illustrates the principles of the Lectures on Faith, Sixth Lecture:

___________________
An actual knowledge to any person that the course of life which he pursues is according to the will of God, is essentially necessary to enable him to have that confidence in God, without which no person can obtain eternal life.

It was this that enabled the ancient saints to endure all their afflictions and persecutions, and to take joyfully the spoiling of their goods, knowing (not believing merely) that they had a more "enduring substance" (Heb. 10:34). 

Having the assurance that they were pursuing a course which was agreeable to the will of God, they were enabled to take, not only the spoiling of their goods and the wasting of their substance joyfully, but also to suffer death in its most horrid forms; knowing (not merely believing) that when this earthly house of their tabernacle was dissolved, they had a building of God, a house "not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" (2 Cor. 5:1).

Such was, and always will be, the situation of the saints of God, that unless they have an actual knowledge that the course that they are pursuing is according to the will of God, they will grow weary in their minds and faint; for such has been, and always will be, the opposition in the hearts of unbelievers and those that know not God, against the pure and unadulterated religion of heaven (the only thing which ensures eternal life), that they will persecute to the uttermost all that worship God according to his revelations, receive the truth in the love of it, and submit themselves to be guided and directed by his will, and drive them to such extremities that nothing short of an actual knowledge of their being the favorites of heaven,and of their having embraced that order of things which God has established for the redemption of man, will enable them to exercise that confidence in him necessary for them to overcome the world, and obtain that crown of glory which is laid up for them that fear God.

For a man to lay down his all, his character and reputation, his honor and applause, his good name among men, his houses, his lands, his brothers and sisters, his wife and children, and even his own life also, counting all things but filth and dross for the excellency of the knowledge of Jesus Christ, requires more than mere belief or supposition that he is doing the will of God, but actual knowledge; realizing that when these sufferings are ended he will enter into eternal rest, and be a partaker of the glory of God.

For unless a person does know that he is walking according to the will of God, it would be offering an insult to the dignity of the Creator were he to say that he would be a partaker of his glory when he should be done with the things of this life.

But when he has this knowledge, and most assuredly knows that he is doing the will of God, his confidence can be equally strong that he will be a partaker of the glory of God.

Let us here observe, that a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation; for from the first existence of man, the faith necessary unto the enjoyment of life and salvation never could be obtained without the sacrifice of all earthly things; it was through this sacrifice, and this only, that God has ordained that men should enjoy eternal life; and it is through the medium of the sacrifice of all earthly things, that men do actually know that they are doing the things that are well pleasing in the sight of God.

When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has for the truth's sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice, because he seeks to do his will, he does know most assuredly that God does and will accept his sacrifice and offering, and that he has not nor will not seek his face in vain.

Under these circumstances then, he can obtain the faith necessary for him to lay hold on eternal life.

It is in vain for persons to fancy to themselves that they are heirs with those, or can be heirs with them, who have offered their all in sacrifice, and by this means obtained faith in God and favor with him so as to obtain eternal life, unless they in like manner offer unto him the same sacrifice, and through that offering obtain the knowledge that they are accepted of him.

...Those then who make the sacrifice will have the testimony that their course is pleasing in the sight of God, and those who have this testimony will have faith to lay hold on eternal life, and will be enabled through faith to endure unto the end, and receive the crown that is laid up for them that love the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ. But those who do not make the sacrifice cannot enjoy this faith, because men are dependent upon this sacrifice in order to obtain this faith; therefore, they cannot lay hold upon eternal life, because the revelations of God do not guarantee unto them the authority so to do; and without this guarantee faith could not exist.

All the saints of whom we have account in all the revelations of God which are extant, obtained the knowledge which they had of their acceptance in his sight, through the sacrifice which they offered unto him. And through the knowledge thus obtained, their faith became sufficiently strong to lay hold upon the promise of eternal life, and to endure as seeing him who is invisible; and were enabled, through faith, to combat the powers of darkness, contend against the wiles of the adversary, overcome the world, and obtain the end of their faith, even the salvation of their souls.  

But those who have not made this sacrifice to God, do not know that the course which they pursue is well pleasing in his sight; for whatever may be their belief or their opinion, it is a matter of doubt and uncertainty in their minds; and where doubt and uncertainty are, there faith is not, nor can it be.

For doubt and faith do not exist in the same person at the same time. So that persons whose minds are under doubts and fears cannot have unshaken confidence; and where unshaken confidence is not, there faith is weak; and where faith is weak, the persons will not be able to contend against all the opposition, tribulations, and afflictions which they will have to encounter in order to be heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ Jesus; and they will grow weary in their minds, and the adversary will have power over them and destroy them.
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It is from the example of King Benjamin we can see the Sixth Lecture in action. Likewise, in King Benjamin's sermon we see the fruit of that faith: the ministry of angels to the king, and his knowledge of God. Therefore, King Benjamin had the kingdom of heaven with him, because he showed the living fruit which comes from that heavenly vine.

The Book of Mormon is a treasury of eternal truth, told in example after example, testifying to the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We can all get closer to God by abiding its precepts than from any other book.

Stiff Necks, Ancient and Modern

King Benjamin explains something which ought to give us all pause. “[T]he Lord God saw that his people were a stiffnecked people, and he appointed unto them a law, even the law of Moses.” (Mosiah 3: 14.) Think about all that implies. The people who God claimed as “His” were nevertheless “stiffnecked people.”

He didn't abandon them because of their spiritual stubborness. Nor did He reject them because they were suffering from their own pride and self-will. They were still “His.”

But, because they were unable or unwilling to really come to Him and be redeemed from the fall (See Ether 3: 13) He gave them something to trouble them: the law of Moses.

This set of rules, sacrifices, ordinances and observances included worship within a Temple or House of God. There, in rich symbolism, they were reminded about the real thing: His presence. They were taught about His real nature. They were shown symbols that foreshadowed His coming into the world to be the bread of life, the light of the world, the sacrifice for sin, and the one through whose blood it was possible to enter back into the Holy of Holies. They had symbolic clothing, sacred language, Divine ritual, and sacred space given them. All this because they were “a stiffnecked people” who were unwilling to enter into His actual presence.

These benighted and proud people then looked at all others and regarded them as less than “the chosen people” because the law of Moses given to them entrusted them with sacred space, sacred ritual, and sacred observances.

These stiffnecked people made the law of Moses an end in itself. It was their special set of rites, their sacred space, their hidden rituals participated in by only the “worthy” and “chosen few” that reassured them they were God’s chosen people. And they were chosen. But they were chosen to be an example of foolishness, an example of pride, and ultimately an example of those who reject God and kill His Son. They were chosen to show how to miss the mark while standing atop sacred ground dedicated to the God they claimed to worship. They were chosen to be foolish, so we might be wise. They were chosen precisely because of their stiff necks to show how God does not delight in the mere observances of outward rituals, but expects our hearts to be made righteous. They illustrate how God rebuked the ancient chosen people for their failure to follow Him in the heart, rather than just in their empty ordinances (1 Sam. 15: 22).

In King Benjamin we have the wisdom of a godly king. He is warning us about the foolishness of God's people. It is a powerful insight into what God prizes and what God thinks of those who, because of their stiff necks, will not bow down in prayer to seek His presence. King Benjamin is not a fictional character. He is a prophet-king whose wisdom exceeded the young Joseph Smith’s when Joseph translated the record of this fallen people. It contains wisdom that still exceeds the grasp of those who claim to follow the religion restored through Joseph.

Scriptures, Not Traditions

Mormon’s abridged account of King Benjamin gives us a wealth of background information about the Nephite sacred history. Look at what leaks through in these opening verses:

"And now there was no more contention in all the land of Zarahemla, among all the people who belonged to king Benjamin, so that king Benjamin had continual peace all the remainder of his days. And it came to pass that he had three sons; and he called their names Mosiah, and Helorum, and Helaman. And he caused that they should be taught in all the language of his fathers, that thereby they might become men of understanding; and that they might know concerning the prophecies which had been spoken by the mouths of their fathers, which were delivered them by the hand of the Lord. And he also taught them concerning the records which were engraven on the plates of brass, saying: My sons, I would that ye should remember that were it not for these plates, which contain these records and these commandments, we must have suffered in ignorance, even at this present time, not knowing the mysteries of God. For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time. I say unto you, my sons, were it not for these things, which have been kept and preserved by the hand of God, that we might read and understand of his mysteries, and have his commandments always before our eyes, that even our fathers would have dwindled in unbelief, and we should have been like unto our brethren, the Lamanites, who know nothing concerning these things, or even do not believe them when they are taught them, because of the traditions of their fathers, which are not correct." (Mosiah 1: 1-5.)

Notice the “plates of brass” are mentioned. These are not the Nephite records, but the records obtained from Laban. (See 1 Ne. 3: 3; 1 Ne. 4: 24; 1 Ne. 5: 10-16.) These Old Testament records were “in the language of the Egyptians” which was required to be able to “read these engravings.” Therefore, it was necessary for King Benjamin’s sons to “be taught in all the language of [King Benjamin’s] fathers” in order to be able to read these records. From this we can conclude the earliest Jewish records were composed and preserved in Egyptian rather than Hebrew. As a matter of historic fact, Hebrew did not exist as a written language until several thousand years following Egyptian writing. This is an interesting detail that leaks through. Joseph Smith would not likely have known this.

To even be capable of reading these scriptures, the Nephite student was required to be proficient in another language. This proficiency was required in order to prevent this line of faithful descendants from “dwindling in unbelief” because they would never be able to remember all of God’s “mysteries” apart from the record. When they lose this kind of information they “know nothing” and “do not believe them when they are taught them, because of the traditions of their fathers, which are not correct.”

What is the difference between ignorance of scripture because they cannot be understood due to the inability to read the language (Egyptian) and ignorance of the scripture because you do not study?

Do we dwindle in unbelief because we fail to study as easily as one would who couldn't read the language?

Can we overcome the incorrect traditions of our fathers if we fail to study the scriptures any easier than we could if we were unfamiliar with them because of apathy?

Is it possible today to dwindle in unbelief because we do not study the scriptures and acquaint ourselves with God’s mysteries?

King Benjamin intrudes into the Nephite record following the content of the Small Plates of Nephi. The Small Plates document a dwindling by the descendants of Jacob. The greatest content is early, and as the record moves along, it has less and less to offer about God and His mysteries. Then abruptly, King Benjamin reverses this pattern. He emerges as a figure of restoration in a pattern of decay. But his ability to serve in that role was directly related to him “remembering” God’s mysteries, which came directly from his study of scripture.

You neglect the scriptures at your peril. You dwindle as you lose contact with God's mysteries contained in scripture. Trusting in the traditions of our fathers is risky. Traditions get measured against scripture, not the reverse.

The Constitution is likewise a guide to protect our liberty. We are free to ignore it, and thereby lose the protection it provides us. Because we have done this, we have destroyed our freedom. The scriptures are also a guide to save us. Because we ignore them, we have lost our way. In place of liberty and salvation we have chosen captivity and damnation. The cure for both is only found through repentance and remembering God's great mercy to us, then laying hold again upon that mercy.

An Ideal Society

King Benjamin taught how to be engaged in the work of God. “I tell you these things that ye may learn wisdom; that ye may learn that when ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God.” (Mosiah 2: 17.) Service to others, and charity to others, not judging the begger but relieving their suffering, these were the hallmarks of King Benjamin’s religion. He practiced his faith by helping others. He tied together forgivness of your sins with helping those who are in need: “For the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God– I would that ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants.” (Mosiah 4: 26.)

King Benjamin is teaching the ideal. This is his pattern of righteousness for his people. If they follow this sermon, there will be unity and no poor among them.

This single focus on helping others was to the exclusion of a lengthy discourse on evil. In his great sermon he only briefly discusses evil, focusing instead on avoiding contention. He taught that contention allowed an evil spirit to enter in, at which point other bad things would follow. (See Mosiah 2: 32-33.) He admonished you to return what you borrow from your neighbor. (Mosiah 4: 28.)

To cover the topic of evil, he wisely counseled as follows: “I cannot tell you all the things whereby ye may commit sin for there are divers ways and means, even so many that I cannot number them.” (Mosiah 4: 29.) That frank assessment by King Benjamin is beyond the wisdom of a young person to grasp. It reflects the lifelong contemplation of an aging king, not the clever fiction of a young Joseph Smith. It is one of the reasons I do not believe Joseph Smith authored the Book of Mormon and one of the proofs it reflects a greater wisdom than was his when the book was first printed. King Benjamin was unwilling to give a lengthy list of what not-to-do, because the list would be endless. Instead he tells what ought to be done to avoid it in an ideal society.

Likewise, the Lord was not concerned with all the temptations which befell Him. Instead, He chose to give them “no heed” (D&C 20: 22), staying focused upon what good He could do to His fellow man. Had it been followed, King Benjamin’s blueprint would have made a better Nauvoo. The fact it wasn’t is proof Joseph Smith did not author the Book of Mormon, nor possess the society-organizing wisdom of King Benjamin. But, then again, Joseph died at 38, and King Benjamin lived into old age.

False but Repeated

There is a false rumor which gets often repeated, and I thought I'd mention here.

Many people, including those who criticize Passing the Heavenly Gift, claim that the talks I began on September 10, 2013 in Boise, Idaho were to "promote" that book. That accusation comes from the stake president's letter demanding that I not promote the book in his summons letter. That letter was written before any of the talks were given. He was guessing the about the talks. I responded to him, and on this blog, that I've never promoted the book and the planned talks have nothing to do with the book. The subject of the lectures is Zion. I have concluded five of them. You can search them if you like. There is nothing in any talk that promotes Passing the Heavenly Gift. If it is mentioned, it is only to give context to something discussed. I do this with other things I have written. It helps quickly put something in context. That is not promotion.

Before the talks began the Salt Lake Tribune also said the purpose of the upcoming talks was to promote the book. They took that from the stake president's letter. Of course, since no talk had been given, they were merely speculating along with the stake president.

Reviewers writing after the Zion talks began, the Salt Lake Tribune writing before the talks began, bloggers writing after the talks began, and those making comments on news articles both before and after have repeated the stake president's unsubstantiated fear that I was planning to promote the book on a speaking tour. When the accusation was originally made, he didn't know what I was planning to speak about and he feared (or more correctly those who were behind the court feared) it would be about the book. The accusation continues to be repeated that I was excommunicated because I refused to stop promoting the book. The fact is that I've never begun to promote it. It is dishonest to continue to claim the contrary, even when five of the talks have now been given and they have nothing to do with promoting a book.

At the talk venues, which I pay to rent, the public is invited to attend without any cost. My books are not available for sale at the venues. Those who spend their own time, provide the equipment and recording media sell copies of the recorded talks. They charge to offset their costs. I get nothing from the sales, and any portion considered mine is donated to further the missionary effort of the church.

The talks are about Zion. You can read transcripts of them by using the links on this blog. If you find something promoting Passing the Heavenly Gift in any of these talks, please send me a comment pointing it out to me.

The first five talks laid a foundation for the next talk, which will address Zion directly. The talk after that (which will be the seventh) will speak of Christ. Thereafter, the criteria and characteristics of mankind related to Zion will be discussed. All of the talks are on one subject only: Zion. In retrospect you will see there was only one talk given, in ten increments, on that single topic.

Just to be clear, I am not angry. Sometimes in this politically correct culture, correcting an error is thought to represent an angry outburst. That is not the case. I just want to be clear about the truth. If you believe I am promoting a book in the talks I have been and will be giving, then you are mistaken because you believe a false accusation which, by now, has proven to be untrue.

Benjamin, Christ and Joseph

King Benjamin’s teaching are astonishing to read. For him the critical question was his conscience: “I had served you, walking with a clear conscience before God.” (Mosiah 2: 27.) This was important because he knew he needed to put the burden upon his people by warning them, otherwise he would be accountable for failing to warn them. His sermon was so that he “might be found blameless, and that your blood should not come upon me, when I shall stand to be judged of God of the things whereof he hath commanded me concerning you.” (Id.) He knew that warning the people in plain language would be the only way his conscience would be clear before God. Then his people could choose between heeding his teaching and thereby obeying God, or rejecting his message and being accountable.

King Benjamin also taught a lesson almost identical to what the risen Savior would later teach. Here is King Benjamin’s language:

“O my people, beware lest there shall arise contentions among you, and he list to obey the evil spirit, which was spoken of by my father Mosiah. For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit;” (Mosiah 2: 32-33.)

Here are Christ’s words:
“And there shall be no disputations among you, as there have hitherto been; neither shall there be disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine, as there have hitherto been. For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another. Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.” (3 Ne. 11: 28-29.)

Neither King Benjamin nor Christ anticipated complete agreement among their followers. All of us understand things somewhat differently, and in some cases more completely as a subject begins to be studied. Even the same individual will understand things differently at different times. As you study in good faith and confidence before God you may believe in a proposition that you will change your understanding about later. That is inevitable when we are progressing.

Assuming we take seriously King Benjamin’s and Christ’s instruction to refrain from contending in anger with one another, how do we proceed as brothers and sisters in sorting out our unavoidable disagreements? The answer, of course, is provided in counsel from Joseph Smith found in scripture which clarifies how we overcome our disagreements:
-by persuasion
-by long-suffering
-by gentleness and meekness
-by kindness
-by pure knowledge
(D&C 121: 41-42.)

The inappropriate disputations and contentions that were condemned by King Benjamin and Christ would likewise fit Joseph's scriptural clarification. We are warned not to:
-cover our sins
-gratify our pride
-pursue our vain ambitions
-exercise control
-exercise dominion
-exercise compulsion
-persecute the Lord’s saints
(D&C 121: 37-38.)

One of the strongest evidences Joseph Smith was in harmony with the Spirit of the Lord is shown in his words mirroring both King Benjamin’s and Christ’s. King Benjamin counseled his people after a lifetime of service and contemplation. Christ’s counsel was given following His resurrection in His appearance to a Nephite audience. In contrast, Joseph’s inspired words came while he was confined to Liberty Jail in Missouri. Gracious words from all three, but Joseph’s were composed in the worst of circumstances. This is one of the reasons I have such respect for Joseph.

The News to Rejoice

King Benjamin’s instruction to his people (and in turn to us) was not just a good man giving fatherly advice at the end of his life. His message was given to him to deliver by heaven itself. King Benjamin said, “And the things which I shall tell you are made known unto me by an angel from God. And he said unto me: Awake; and I awoke, and behold he stood before me. And he said unto me: Awake, and hear the words which I shall tell thee; for behold, I am come to declare unto you the glad tidings of great joy. For the Lord hath heard thy prayers, and hath judged of thy righteousness, and hath sent me to declare unto thee that thou mayest rejoice; and that thou mayest declare unto thy people, that they may also be filled with joy.” (Mosiah 3: 2-4.)

First, it is noteworthy that the message he received was because “the Lord hath heard thy prayers.” The message would not have come without a petition.

Second, the petition was granted because the Lord “hath judged of thy righteousness” and determined King Benjamin was qualified to receive the messenger and the message. The petitioner must be judged righteous. Petitioning without qualifying would not have accomplished anything.

When a sermon has a Divine source, it is important to listen. More than what an academic can offer, an angel’s message is given from God, who is the author.

Notice the purpose of the message is to cause the recipient to “rejoice” and for those who he was permitted to relay the message to likewise “be filled with joy.”

When you read the message, however, there are many things contained within that do not cause us to “be filled with joy” because we learn about the coming of the Lord Omnipotent into the flesh (Mosiah 3: 5) to “suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death” (Mosiah 3: 7). The message continues that men will “consider him as a man, and say he hath a devil, and shall scourge him, and shall crucify him.” (Mosiah 3: 9.) Yet despite these horrible details of the Lord’s life, we all (King Benjamin, his people and us) are told this is news which should “fill us with joy” when we hear it. It is as if the Lord wants us to be mature enough to look beyond the trouble, the difficulty, the terrible price and to the effect of His sacrifice. To the extent we ponder His awful suffering, it stands as a powerful symbol, testimony and record of His great love and willingness to go to the extreme to reclaim us from condemnation and suffering. We should stand in awe of His love, because this suffering was born from His great love. In no other way could He open the door to bring us back from death and hell. Therefore, the message must necessarily include these awful details.

The joy we are to feel comes from the result of His suffering: “he shall rise the third day from the dead; and behold, he standeth to judge the world; and behold, all these things are done that a righteous judgment might come upon the children of men.” (Mosiah 3: 10.) Christ will rise! Through the power of this suffering He is qualified to judge! He will judge righteously!

The good news continues: “his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned.” (Mosiah 3: 11.) These are good things, indeed.

However, what decides if we are blessed by the Lord Omnipotent when He stands “to judge the world” and imposes a “righteous judgment?” King Benjamin expounds this sermon precisely to teach his people how to take advantage of the atonement of the Lord Omnipotent. I think the sermon is worth studying. It was given to allow those who hear this message (including us) to take advantage of the Lord Omnipotent’s great sacrifice. We ought to all be interested in doing that.