It is from the church I have received the ordinances of baptism and laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
It is from the church I have received the scriptures, other ordinances, and authority.
I pay tithing to the church, attend regular meetings with other members, and receive the Sacrament weekly. I raise my children to attend and be faithful to the church. I am grateful to the church for its programs for children.
I listen to General Conference, and attend a large gathering on the BYU campus with my sons every six months during the Priesthood Session of Conference. I drive my children by the conference center during conference to see the protesters and read their anti-Mormon signs. This reminds my children that, although we are in the majority here, we are not liked by the majority elsewhere.
I have no intention of ever leaving the church. I see no reason to ever do so. I know the church welcomes me and my family. I know they are grateful that I attend, pay tithing and support the programs as we are asked to do.
I mention that only to make certain that some of those who read here are not misled. I have no ambition to lead the church or any person other than my family. I am grateful others are called to do so. I pray for them and do not think I could do any better job than is being done. On the contrary, I think I would make things worse.
I love my fellow Latter-day Saints. Even those with whom I have deep disagreements over doctrine. I enjoy associating with people who can discuss some of the important issues facing us, even if we hold very different views of what the solutions should be. At the end of the day, in order for the church to survive, it needs to have a mechanism to bring debate to an end and make a decision. That mechanism is in place and I respect it. If it were to be altered, it would likely break the entire system. The system is essential for the church's survival.
I sustain President Monson and do not think anyone other than him has final decision-making authority in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Think about what it would mean if his decisions could be vetoed endlessly from his office down to the lay members. This would cease to be a meaningful organization.
We have tremendous problems facing the church at present. I think they are all due to the abandonment of a pattern originally restored, in favor of innovations recommended by social sciences. The Correlation Department has accelerated this metamorphosis of the church and now leads it. The possibility remains that the church will return to an earlier pattern, but that seems quite unlikely at this point. To paraphrase Deseret Book: "Doctrine doesn't sell now." Doctrine does not matter as it once did, and as a result, the gentiles are not even aware of the content of the scriptures, the messages addressed to us, the responsibilities which have been laid upon us, and the warnings about how we are proceeding. The prophetic pessimism of the Book of Mormon prophets is not found in the modern messages. In fact, the feel-good messages seem to be denounced by the Book of Mormon and foretold as a sign of our own erring.
As a single, private member of the church, the only tool available to me approved by scripture is persuasion. If what I write does not persuade, I own no office, hold no calling, and command no position from which to insist you trust, believe or accept what I write. Oddly, no priesthood position in the church, from the least to the greatest, is entitled to insist you trust, believe or accept what they say. (D&C 121: 41.) I see very little demanding when it comes to actual presiding authorities. But I see a lot of that being urged vicariously, on behalf of presiding authorities, and in their names. It appears that between the Brethren who preside, and the common members, there is a disconnection wherein the Correlation Department has inserted themselves. Into that arena they have brought increasingly more intolerant and strict rule-making. I think there are talks every General Conference intended to work against that mischief. But, alas, the COB is a difficult beast to ride. It will take a grizzly bear to wrestle it into submission, I suspect.
In any event, the gentiles must fulfill their own destiny. Although there will be failings, limitations, foolishness and apostasy by the gentiles rejecting what is offered them, they will perform a great act. They will be the means of bringing back the remnant. There will be those who believe the Book of Mormon, teach correctly to the remnant about their own fathers, and assist in bringing about the New Jerusalem.
This interplay between gentile and remnant destinies is very real, and requires a work of the gentiles not yet completed.
I do not know how much further to pursue this topic. There are prophecies Joseph made about the Rocky Mountain gathering. There is the controversial "horse-shoe prophecy" about the travel of the Saints before the New Jerusalem would be founded. There is Joseph's finger on the map pointing where he suspected the New Jerusalem would be built. And the fellow who saw the pointing who speculated it was around where Snowflake, Arizona is presently located. However, the map had no borders, no states, and Snowflake didn't exist at the time. So a finger on a map could be hundreds of miles away from Snowflake. I'm not inclined to do much with that right now. I'm more inclined to take up some other stuff and leave the remnant alone for the time being.
As I said when this started, it was going to take a while. I'm thinking it might be better to change topics for a while and turn attention to some other things. The remnant will reappear in its own natural order as we move along in any direction we take. Their appearance is so widespread in latter-day prophecy that it is unavoidable. Many of you hadn't noticed it before. Now you have some background and ought to be able to pick up the matter on your own and see it for yourselves.
Too-Shay--- Denver I am grateful for your sight and your insight. It is one thing I cant wait to come home and read and ponder on. thank you. I often wondered what your comment sack was like, As there are many that receive different insights from the Lord and then mount up a charge . First thing they want more wife's , then pack up and move to a new site . pointing fingers at everyone. standing on a soap box thinking they all of a sudden have all knowledge. and go off running like Sidney Rigdon and others did.
ReplyDeleteI am grateful for your insight and your books they have given me insight along my path that has help make it possible to not hit so many dead ends. Also this is like a large class room where those of us that study the scriptures can gather and discuss the doctrines of Christ and learn not only from your insight but those comments of others and there thoughts.
I don't understand how it works , but sometimes I think that Satan's spirit's can mimic the HG very well . Causing some men I have seen after they get close to the Lord and then start taking authority unto themselves,and the HG leaves and satans spirits step in and the man cannot tell the difference and he goes on having revelation and etc. I think that is the thing that leads the Lords Priesthood away, pride and what not follows in as explained in D&C 121. Then Satans spirits step in to them unknowing and they march off down the wrong path thinking they are saving the world.
Thanks again for your thoughts that you share so wonderful and freely .
Denver,
ReplyDeleteI really appreaciate the subject of the Remnant. I have always felt a desire to bring back and honor the desire of their Fathers to have them receive the Fulness of the Gospel.
Recently, I meet a gentleman named John Jarvis (late 80's, early 90's) that shared with me (at my request) his witness of the Remnant, and the Gentile Church. He was visiting our ward to see a Grandson's Farewell and he had made several comments that caught my attention.He reported the Spirit taught him in a most unique and profound way that showed him scriptures so that he could understand and "Bear Record" to the Church and the Brethern, which he has done. IN general there has been no response from the brethern. He meet with Several Apostles and other authorites.
He also reported his family had a mission to the Japanese, and that it was given by a Heavenly Messenger. He reported the Japanese Samuri arrived in Japan as a 2nd migration from a former home land. He said they came on ships. He spoke how they have a legend of White God that would come to them when asked out of the EAST mountain.
I really felt for him, as most of his family thinks he is almost Apostate. He is active in the church, holds a recommend and uses it, and makes it clear he is not hear to speak against the church. He only shares when asked.
I meet him 2 weeks before we were moving to Colorado, yet I felt it important to take time and meet with him. He came to my home and visisted for 4+ hours with me and my wife. I felt the Spirit and felt he was right on about the Gentiles (Us), the Remnant, and much of what I have been reading from the scriptures, You, and several others I read.
I just felt I wanted to share this with you, as he is another witness that There are Remnant out there, and that We, the Gentiles, must do better in bringing the the BofM and the Ordinances to them.
He left me a manuscript of his Record called "I must bear Record."
I know he is a good man, and feel for any witnesses that have suffered much in bearing record.
Denver, thank you for your witness.
Brian Bowler
utahbowler@hotmail.com
When Jesus' disciples followed Him into Jerusalem, they were a little over-excited thinking He was going to wrest the kingdom back from the Romans and the false Jews. He knew their joy was based on an unfinished doctrinal basis, yet it was the Pharisees that demanded they be circumscribed in their behavior. Jesus responded, if they were silenced, the very rocks would shout out for joy.
ReplyDeleteLet the Saints go off on their exultant mind-journeys. There is something to be learned by it. Maybe it will be a sad experience, maybe not. When the early Saints had such trouble with false spirits, Joseph let them go. When he introduced revelations that helped people detect false spirits, there was no correlated effort to put a stop to anyone's tirades, simply light and knowledge to help these tirades not impose on others.
Joseph let them continue and was often more apt to believe in them when they may've been a problem. Hyrum usually helped Joseph see some of the impropriety of some manifestations. But Joseph was more right to allow people their freedom of expression.
If a person goes off in a wrong direction, there is no guarantee they are doomed forever. It may be they change the notions really quickly. It may be they only need to tweak it some.
We Gentiles are so intent on being sound-minded we even judge the people in the Book of Mormon who fell down and had visions. We simply think it embarrassing to be even closely associated with Pentecostal type religions that we sometimes throw the baby out with the bath-water. How would we have reacted when Brigham Young broke out with Adamic language in the temple?
It is just as bad to take authority to oneself to regulate such behavior as it is to suggest such escapades are authoritative. Let the people experiment and be sober enough to try the spirits looking for the right One. Give them a little rope to make mistakes and repent rather than squash the true manifestations in the process. This is my advice to myself because I've always felt the opposite in my life and now I think I need to reform and be more magnanimous.
I haven't had enough spiritual experiences and I want the freedom to expect them. If I make a mistake, I want the confidence in myself to believe I'll be able to sort it out. That sounds like good doctrine to me.
Bro. Snuffer,
ReplyDeleteYou mentioned recently "the most important chapter I ever wrote." Would you care to tell us what that chapter is?
Do you think it would help if you put the introduction to this blog in Red Letters with a WARNING label? It clearly states that for the best benefit readers need to be familiar with what you have written. If people would only read the instructions and follow them. Interesting, but we (me) often read the scriptures (instructions), but don't follow them. Then we wonder why we have problems. Carry on, Denver, carry on.....for those of us who have read the instructions :)
ReplyDeleteIt still amazes me that some want to treat people who love all of the gospel as a lump sum of "those wicked people". PM is a true celestial doctrine, as is consecrating and building up true Zion communities, true order of prayer, talking to God face to face, never changing ordinances, etc. But until we repent, obtain the fullness like Father wants, we cannot live anything like that, even if we have a strong testimony of it, and understand the features, benefits and blessings that come from living it. God only gives us things calculated for the happiness of his most righteous sons/Patriarchal Fathers, and for exalting us to the highest heavens. It is the natural thinking man or woman that wants to reject an eternal principle because of their personal views or feelings. Simply research the scriptures and Joseph Smith's life and the talks found by our prophets, seers and revelators in the Journal of Discourses and ask God about it. Those things will be allowed again. They are rights and priveledges that God gives to His more righteous people who hold the fullness. So before we get back to that, we need the fullness back. These things available to the greatest priesthood leaders of the past, are calculated to benefit families, to take care of women, to give women the right and freedom to select the most righteous man heading towards the celestial kingdom wether or not he is already married, to bless righteous families with never ending posterity for their mortal lives, etc. Where do the most blessings flow? Your posterity. Father has never ending increase... so in order to allow men to become like Him in this life, PM is allowable when He commands. So, having a large family means having more blessings. This is a celestial law that allows for the building up of families, not for ruining or detracting from them. When men and women seek to understand the truth, the blessings and benefits that come from living it, they will not "get it".
ReplyDeleteI don't know what it means for the church members that where living plural marriage after the fullness was lost among us. The first 7 presidents of this church and most their apostles and friends lived it. It was a doctrine given to and accepted by the church as doctrine well after Joseph's death (1852 until Pres JF Smith's 1904 letter). Why did Apostle Woodruff and Pres Taylor have so many revelations during the 1880's to never give it up, that the Lord would deliver us from our persecutors if we trusted Him and did our part in remembering and being faithful to Him?
...If Denver is right about the sealing power or fullness of mel. priesthood being removed from us as a church before Joseph died, then some may presume those that were living it after that time would be committing adultery. Joseph Smith had the fullness of priesthood. He had C&E made sure and the sealing power given along with that. He was commanded to restore an eternal principle, calculated for the benefit and exaltation of righteous families. Joseph sealed many wives to himself well before 1842 when he started temple marriages with Emma, right after getting her endowment... which couldn't happen until she accepted all the laws of the gospel... which is a promise we still make to God ourselves. So before anyone goes off with their own ideas about the eternal law granted to righteous priesthood holders and prophets of the past, you might want to see what God and His true prophets had to say about it first. I use to have the same misunderstanding on it myself... but I asked God to show me what it was all about. Obviously it can be lived wrong. We see some doing so today in un-athorized movements outside the church. But what about those under the impression that they are living it with God's approval? I've contacted many poly families to get firsthand knowledge about their lifestyles, why they do what they do. Many are enjoying a numerous and happy posterity. I know a Dr who has 18 kids with his first wife, and around 20 more with his other 2 wives. Thats a lot of blessings!
ReplyDeleteReminds me of Will Clayton... he had 10 wives and 50 kids! Wow! But, as with all things, we have to make sure things are lived within the bounds the Lord has set. And I feel those things can only be lived in our day, if the Lord himself commands one who has already obtained C&E/Sealing Power from the Lord himself. Joseph was commanded 3 times to live it and to get others who where in his close circle of true believing friends living it as well. He had the fullness. He held the power to seal. He was in contact with the Lord to know who to seal to whom. His connection with and obedience to heaven... and even heaven itself commanded him to live something even he was afraid to live. He was so afraid to teach it to his wife and his closest friends, he knew the rejection it would cause. But, he was willing to do the things the Lord commanded, even if he himself didn't understand it fully. Even if it ultimately led to the sacrifice of his own life if necessary. ...
...What about today? What if the Lord asked someone in the church who obtained a similar connection with the Lord to live it (even if secretly), like those in the past? Can we presume to judge? If one has that connection, and the Lord is actually directing and commanding... isn't He in charge? Doesn't the Lord hold more authority than anyone on earth? If a man has to live everything the Lord and other great patriarchs and prophets lived to receive the highest exaltation and reign in the celestial kingdom over others living it, then I'm sure the Lord will command when the time is right. I know anything is possible with the Lord. And if a man obtains a close connection with heaven like men in the past have, those men are going to have to follow God over any mortal.
ReplyDeleteThe question is, will we continue to reject to receive a testimony of a true patriarchal priesthood order, or will we see what God and His closest prophets had to say about it? Will we ask the Lord to show us the truth on the matter? We have to start somewhere. Proper understanding and education is a start. Obviously we can't live something until the Lord commands, and until we have the right mindest and want to live everything we can to go to the society of Gods we speak of. But don't let your thoughts over ride the truth, or prevent you from seeing it as God sees it. There are blessings and virtue in living it right, when the Lord authorizes such righteous families to do so. I know this because of my deep research of church history and the scriptures, and endless hours on my knees to understand why it was lived, and why we don't live it today. Denver's blog shows why we don't live it today. Our hearts are not right about many things, we have treated lightly the Holiest principles God ever gave us, we don't really believe in the miracles and connection with heaven in the BOM, and we have lost that connection with our Lord that is required to live as He wants us to. I leave my testimony that this is a true celestial principle. Let us cease our light mindedness and let go of any wrong perceptions we may hold because of our lack of understanding and inquiry on the matter. These things will be required to be allowed when Zion comes again. Lets get our hearts and thoughts started in the right direction, so we are not fighting against the truth when it is allowed again.
You'll have to forgive me Brother Snuffer...I'm the one who wrote the "Denverite" comment.
ReplyDeleteI am learning a ton from this blog and from others' comments. As someone said I guess I'm still trying to shed my "correlation skin."
My comment wasn't meant to discredit Denver, I think. I think it was more to verify that he is someone to be trusted.
I have from time to time been given counsel by other men, and even felt the HS in their counsel.
However, I later realized that the counsel was erroneous and was only left with disappointment.
I guess I need to do like Zang Family said and "try the spirits." I thought I was good at listening to and feeling the HS but maybe not.
The Post today reminds me of the of the Jack Nicholson line, “You can’t handle the truth.”
ReplyDeleteIts apparent from your words today Denver, that many of your readers are still fast asleep and they like it that way. Don’t rock the boat or shake up their world. Oh well, many of them will probably hear those same words as my friend, once they pass through the veil, “shocking isn’t it.”
No wonder the unbelieving gentiles cant burst through the unbelief and receive the “greater things” promised in the Book of Mormon?
Sad!
here are the pertinent prophecies from Denver's posts
ReplyDeleteA Remarkable Prophecy By President John Taylor As Told by Edward Lunt, An Ordinance Worker in the Mesa Temple
He said that faithful Latter-day Saints would go to the south and would form a circle something like a horseshoe, before they return to Jackson County, Missouri. Said he, "Those only will be privileged to help build Jackson County who will be found willing and glad to obey the counsel and advice of the authorities who will be placed over them, and who will seek counsel that they may be guided and protected from dire want and distress.
President Taylor also said that we will assist the Lamanites in building the New Jerusalem in Jackson county. He said that the vision to him appeared so terrible that he besought the Lord to close it up, but he saw that those who would keep the commandments and adhere to the authorities of the church would be the ones who would survive and not be destroyed. And that the lord would protect them as he did the children of Israel.
Mosiah Hancock:
Placing his (Joseph Smith, brackets ours) finger on the map (I should think about where Snowflake, Arizona, is situated, or it could have been Mexico) he said, "The government will not receive you with the laws God designed that you should live, and those who are desirous to live the laws of God will have to go south. You will live to see men arise in power in the Church who will seek to put down your friends and the friends of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Many will be hoisted because of their money and the worldly learning which they seem to be in possession of; and many who are the true followers of our Lord and Savior will be cast down because of their poverty." —Journal.
Next >
Anonymous who was posting about plural marriage. -Perhaps people are turned off by the fact that plural marriage is the only celestial principal that is obsessed over.
ReplyDeleteI never see a long post or two or three, defending the law of consecration, or any other celestial principal.
To the plural marriage doctrine again:
ReplyDeleteThe pure in heart (not arguing for myself here) see the ability to serve others as a privilege. Having more wives is not the privilege. It may become an extension of the opportunity to serve when implemented correctly (which I confess, I don't know how to do that), but it is not the privilege as some may assume.
The privileges may indeed come as an exalted man and exalted woman together find out just what Gods have the freedom to do.
But here we are to consecrate and uplift. The speculations I included in a previous post tastes good to me. The goal is to uplift with brotherly love. The thought that one man is scores ahead in righteousness than others, and that those others will never catch up, seems to lead to pride to me.
Heap up all the women unto the strong men. What of the weak? How is our concern for our weak brothers? Would we be willing to give them one of the wives we are stewards over and lovingly prepare them spiritually for the duties if plural marriage were in place? Or do we consider all those potential wives as our eternal property?
I don't know if that is how it works. I don't care too much. I only care that we in our hearts could tackle such an issue and feel we could do right to our brothers and everyone concerned.
If we could do it in that scenario, we can certainly do it for our brothers now when we are only allowed to have one wife. We can help them find a wife and work towards an eternal marriage sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise.
Where are our hearts in these things? Have we considered all parties concerned and completely excluded selfishness? Or, even if wives and children DO add to our glory, are we consumed with thinking about adding to our own glory, like Satan? That is all I'm asking.
(sung to the tune of The Beatles' Yesterday)
ReplyDeletePolygamy
All my hopes for it seem away.
Now it seems there's only one to stay.
Oh, I believe in polygamy.
Suddenly
I am thrice the man I used to be!
Many women hanging over me...
Oh, polygamy came suddenly.
Why they had to go
I don't know, I couldn't say
I said, Hey you babe
How I long for polygamy, yeah yeah yeah
Polygamy
Love was such an easy game to play
Now I need to hide my thoughts away
Oh, I believe in polygamy.
Dum dum dum dum. Dum da-dum.
CS, I have posted many 3 part posts recently, about other doctrines, not about PM. Why is it that so many reject PM the most? Consecration is a wonderful blessing to live with people with their hearts upon one another. I am very sorry we cannot live this law either. So, I try to help others obtain proper light on the things that are being protested or misunderstood at the time. So, post about your rejection of LOC or Law of Consecration and I'll give you a quick 3 part response on it too.
ReplyDeleteZang is right. There are rights granted to those who become true Sons and Daughters of the Father and joint heirs with the Son. There are also laws required to be obeyed to be able to rule and reign in the celestial world. Like with Seymore Young, he couldn't become an apostle until he lived PM according to Pres Taylor. He quickly found another wife and was put into position. Could it be that you cannot govern your worlds (rule in the cel Kingdom), when you are not living the highest laws, and you are responsible for establishing all the celestial truths and laws upon the worlds you create? There is order and law to adhere to, for all degrees and kingdoms. There is a reason for everything. There is a reason Joseph had to live it and was commanded by an angel many times to do so or he and his people would be rejected. Better find out why that was.
Joseph was a true prophet. And I will defend that man and everything he lived forever. He lost his life trying to give the fullness and celestial laws into our hands... things that we treat lightly and even try to erase from history.
Zang, Who said anything about lust or selfishness? Satan lost his right to an eternal family for his rebellion. Thats part of his damnation. Are you seriously putting PM in satans bag? He fights against that "most holy principle" according to our own latter day prophets still to this day, and I see he has done a fine job even among some here by their ranting and ravings.
ReplyDeleteThink about it, a man receives the Fullness like Joseph Smith. Women have an opportunity to be sealed by and to a man who has a guaranteed position next to the Gods. By virtue of the sealing and their obeying their husband as he obey's the Lord... those women go with Him there. Now think about the condition of men today and all thru history. How many men have obtained this level? How many good women will be left that want celestial husbands here after? Women choose and go with their husbands they choose to. Is it just for a woman who merited a celestial world to be given to a man who doesn't want anything more than terrestial or telestial? Like I say, there are reasons why certain laws are allowable by God. And there are reasons why we refuse to understand them and even try to weasle away from them. Which spirit does that person have?
(Home on the Range)
ReplyDeleteOh, give me ten wives
For the rest of my lives
I'll be good, so good, I swear.
No one will fight
And we'll stay up all night
Reading scriptures and saying our prayers.
Oh, po-lygamy...
I'm longing for you, can't you see?
Just give me the test
I can't give it a rest
I'm game for the LOC.
There's so many girls
They're as precious as pearls
Math alone is o-on my side.
I'm just doing my part
From the depths of my heart
Can't you weak ones just take it in stride?
Oh, po-lygamy...
I'm longing for you, can't you see?
Just give me the test
I can't give it a rest
I'm game for the LOC.
Hi Anonymous @2:08,
ReplyDeleteI am not putting plurality of wives in Satan's bag, just a sentiment regarding it. Not saying you have the sentiment. Words are used which lean close to it so I mention it for the benefit of others. Read this to catch a drift of the sentiment I am advocating in place of another:
Luke 14:8-11
8 When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
9 And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
I'm sure you're familiar with that, so I'm not sparring with you on it.
My speculation is: consider Joseph's mention of 10 virgins given by this law belonging to that man and no one else.
Then consider that man employs the virtue of brotherly love 10,000 years later in the eternities, loosing the sealing to 9 of those virgins and seals them to his brothers who have finally come up the ranks in worthiness.
It is an interesting proposition and one that would take a revelation to see if the Gods behave this way. It would change some people's motivations for the way they want to live plural marriage now, perhaps. That is all I'm suggesting.
And I respectfully reject your notion that the Laws of Heaven can't be lived without these institutions. Again, the Second Comforter, I believe, would not come to the people on the forum who have claimed to have visited with Him without having plural wives.
I do not say that men having plural wives are excluded from receiving the Second Comforter, but I do not believe men having only one wife are excluded either. Fair enough?
Oh my goodness anonymous. You have a real talent for writing songs! That was great!
ReplyDeleteI wonder if the men who are so concerned with marrying and then possibly giving away a wife or two to some one else, ever consider whether the women want to be married or given away, etc. Heaven forbid we word these comments in a way that would hint that women are considered equal to men!
Or CS...could they be having concern for others who are so bent on plural marriage, as to offer them an escape route from the selfish version of it? Of course the women need to be considered. But do you think someone corrupted by selfish motives for the practice can begin to think about the women yet? First they have to relate to what inconveniences they make for their weak brethren, then we will work on their problem towards women.
ReplyDeleteI wish this comment field had the ability to block certain very obnoxious commentators who treat this as their own soap box. Zang, are you for real??? Why don’t you go start your own blog elsewhere and take your wacky opinions with you. Your overbearing (and much overused) privilege to post here is grating on too many nerves.
ReplyDeleteI generally agree with you, Anonymous @8:41, but I'm here by invitation and both parties who have insisted I keep commenting have asked to remain Anonymous. I don't care to start a blog beyond a few posts I already have put up elsewhere and failed miserably at (brianzang.blogspot.com - it's mainly just a resource for myself for cool links).
ReplyDeleteMaybe someday we'll both get our wish and I can rest from this commenting business. Sorry if I grate on your nerves. No harm intended.
Now let's bring the wackiness right back down to earth and hopefully close off this topic for another good while:
ReplyDeleteI think it can be seen that IF the motivation for plural marriage is supposed to be temporary, then there is much more virtue in building up spiritual men now to take a wife of their own without sheltering the "extra women" until that time. It makes plural marriage the exception rather than the rule. If the early Brethren didn't live up to the requirement to fulfill the exception the Lord pointed out, then they will be judged for that.
But today, if the energy some men spend on snatching up extra women to "shelter" them were to be spent trying to convert other men to be worthy of them first, we'd be a lot better off in my opinion. Wouldn't the women agree?
Zang family: If some of the men are weak at that point; that will then be their fault, for Christ makes weak things strong.
ReplyDeleteFor women who make it to the Celestial realms, it will be Women's choice, (and won't THAT be a pleasant change?) according to B.H. Roberts. There will be no handing off of wives to lesser brethren just to be charitable. Women AREN'T slaves OR property. They will choose whom they will choose.
I find that men who THOUGHT celestial marriage was a good idea, often get a bit terrified when this concept hits them.
Agree Anonymous, 8:41.
ReplyDeleteZang (and a few others) have caused me to generally totally ignore all comments. Its a shame we don't get higher quality in the comment section.
I have three daughters. I'd rather help influence three young men to become spiritual giants than to have them all married to one spiritual giant, no matter how worthy he was. Wouldn't the fathers agree?
ReplyDeleteWhy don't more of us obtain the fullness and see what the Lord says about it. Until then, study all the great testimonies found in our own church archives and early church published books and inquire about it. Guess the truth be be shocking for some.
ReplyDeleteMy comment @7:29 PM was most definitely NOT intended for anyone personally when I said "others who are so bent on plural marriage, as to offer them an escape route from the selfish version of it."
ReplyDeleteI was simply trying to offer CS another possible motive, and the motive wasn't connected to any individual. I'm throwing out hypothetical situations and one Anonymous happened to interact some with that process. I wasn't referring to them. I don't judge their motives for their beliefs.
If it seemed like I was doing that to someone personally, I apologize. That wasn't my intent.
I do hope we can move on. Denver's next theme in the blog is exciting!
Anonymous--
ReplyDeleteIf you don't like Zang's comments, you can choose to ignore them.
That they're visible to us means they passed the goddess's moderation filter and been found worthy of posting (though that in no way implies any kind of agreement or endorsement).
Clearly both DS & the CM believe strongly in the 11th Article of Faith. [I always thought I did too before, but Denver's patience with the collective lot of us shows me by example that I could do a better job in this regard in my own life.]
Regardless, what I wish vis a viz comments & commenters is that all the various repeat-"Anonymous" commenters had to pick a name, or a number or an initial--kudos to AnonymousNV in this regard; there have been a lot of anonymous comments of late and it makes the discussion harder to parse & follow not even knowing how many different people are talking or knowing who is who! :-)
"It makes plural marriage the exception rather than the rule."
ReplyDeleteThe Book of Mormon itself teaches that plural marriage is the exception rather than the rule: Jacob 2:24-30 [specifically verses 27 & 30].
From all I have read that Joseph Smith said to the Saints during his lifetime, that he actually published publically himself, seems to indicate that he sealed his testimony with his blood, against polygamy, not for it.
ReplyDeleteHe preached against it over & over & tried to convince the Saints how evil polygamy was & to not believe the rumors going around that he was secretly living it.
It seems he was continually trying to root it out of the Church, excommunicating members & even Apostles who were secretly living it.
It would make no sense for Joseph to do that if he or God was trying to get the people ready for it, it only made them more resistant towards it, when apostles started preaching it after his death.
After Joseph's death, many in the Church held to their Prophet Joseph's warnings against polgamy, over an apostles later contrary teachings that went against what a Prophet said.
We are still taught today to go with what the President of the Church or 'The Prophet' says if an apostle ever teaches anything different.
And for the anonymous above:
A righteous women has the power to eventually make any man righteous, she never has to pick one who is already taken.
From a Chinese Sister (Wow, odds are in my favor!)
ReplyDeleteTo be sung to "MY GUY"
Nothing you can say can take me away from my guys.
Phillip, Mark and Scott they really mean a lot,
They’re my guys.
I’m married to the one and I’m married to another.
I’ll marry yet again and I’ll probably choose their brother.
This bigamy is great; I’ve always got a date
They’re my guys.
Nothing you can do can make me be untrue to my guys.
Tyler, George and Lee they all belong to me, they’re my guys.
When I go to marry it’s Tom, Dick and Harry.
It’s really not a problem but paternity tests are SCARY!
I’m telling you right from the start I can’t be torn apart from my guys.
I can just agree that I don't like to discuss polygamy much.
ReplyDeleteAt least not at this time. There's so much more that we need to consider.
So... two fellow-posters, anonymous ones, invited Zang to post here? Unless Denver invited you to post, don't say you were invited. Do you see how that makes no sense? What if I invite you not to post? Who cares, right?
ReplyDeleteAnd good grief, if anyone's going to post something longer than the flippin' post written by Denver, why don't you think again?
-HastySpirit (and author of the first two songs... not the last one)
Ok, forgive my boldness herem but follow my train of thought... See Denvers new post today. A new dispensation was given us in the supposedly last dispensation (where Joseph said all things that where had before would be restored in this time -but we messed things up royaly), at least before the new one in the millenium occurs. The BOM period which tells the wicked nephites, (who at the time became more wicked than the wicked and were obviously carrying on plural marriage from their Jerusalem days), to cease the practice. (How do you think the nephites spread so fast?) But, that was also 2 whole dispensations ago. What has been ordered in our dispensation? What is found in our own sacred text given in our current dispensation, which the Lord said we'll be judged by? We have no real, legit word from God to cease it. No written revelation, just some press releases saying we'll give up Gods law to be more like the world. This is supposed to be the dispensation of the FULLNESS. We were commissioned to maintain everything the Lord gave us. Of course, with us losing our fullness of priesthood even among the heads of the church, this brings into question wether or not anyone (even the heads of he church if they decided to allow it again) can live PM without being sealed with real POWER (authority + real connection with heaven).
ReplyDeleteI don't know the answers to my own questions... but Denver makes a good point. New ways, new commissions are made when a new dispensing of the fullness is given on earth. Until the Lord dispenses a new movement among us, what if the ability to live PM even without sealing power is still in effect?
Maybe he is just showing us that when the dispensation that opens in the terrestial/millenial world or takes totally from the gentile church and gives it to a near east remnant, the Lord will make a new commission to new leaders... obviously to those who had obtained real power, the FULLNESS before that dispensation opens. Isn't Denver plainly saying our leaders do not have the Fullness... as it left long ago? That we have a FORM OF priesthood left. Like when God said men can have a "form of Godliness"... though their hearts are far from Him? This is just open pondering on my end... but just what do we have left? Do we have any POWER to do anything today? If so what? Just ability to baptise and enough mel PH to lay on of hands for HG and pass on authority of the PH, though we lack the power thereof? Or do we just have a form, an example of what should be?
Next question, will the Lord accept modern polygamists whose hearts are just into the new dispensational work or be gathered before it? Or can plural marriage be lived only when true sealing power is here to perform such marriages? There is a difference between plural marriage and a sealed celestial plural marriage. Either way, CPM is celestial marriage in it's fullness. Our early prophets said it is required to go to the highest degree in the celestial kingdom. Why?
And Zang, plural marriage is marriage period. Why do you call it temporary? Why on earth or in heaven would a woman who loves her husband want to give him up later? Is she going to be forced to "go with someone else" who has no talents after resurrection? Your gospel sure is different than the one I know. If you do well with 1 talent, the Lord blesses you with more. Early prophets did use the parable of the talents to teach PM.
ReplyDeleteMy wife and I agree, Zang, go find some other place to spew your ramblings. Everytime we get some people to post really great comments (and some of them are very sacred) you come along with "Zang's world" and take things 180 degrees off-course.
ReplyDeleteI apologize for such a harsh comment, but you RUIN the spirit on this blog.
There is no way that Denver has invited your nonsense to degrade this otherwise highly spiritual meeting place.
Like I said, they wished to remain Anonymous. I take personal responsibility for what I say, but I will keep the requests as long as they stand. I'm sorry if some of you or many of you don't like it.
ReplyDeleteI've enjoyed all the comic relief with the songs. Hoping they weren't intended as a direct attack at any other individuals posting here, though (as I know what kind of trouble that brings when it even seems like you are doing that). As comic relief, though, they had me rolling on the floor laughing!
Anonymous@11:18:
ReplyDeleteThat sounds like the traditional teaching of the RLDS--now Community of Christ, BUT their own historian (now former historian for obvious reasons)Richard Howard, came to the conclusion that Joseph did indeed practice plural marriage due to his research.
I am only referring to what Joseph said & preached & published to the Saints before his death. That is there for all to read & see & pray about. That is what my ponderings are based upon.
ReplyDeleteYes, Brian, you need to quit spewing your strange ideas and different approach to understanding doctrine. Your ramblings get in the way of us feeling the Spirit and learning about how to come to the Savior and be Christlike!
ReplyDelete---Doug
Anonymous @ 9:08am, have you read Denver's book, Beloved Enos?
ReplyDeleteGoodbye friends,
ReplyDeleteIt appears that our friend “Zang” is either a self-appointed agitator, or as he claims, he has been assigned to fill that role on this website by someone or some group who hope to disrupt the sincere efforts of the visitors here to learn of Christ, or in his psychotic delusions (my personal guess) he thinks he is actually adding value?
In any case, I have reached the end of my personal rope in regard to this persons constant nonsensical diatribe, and I am withdrawing from any further participation in the comments section of this site. Recently several people have shared supremely sacred experiences for which I am deeply grateful, and I also found the courage the post my own most sacred experience and I appreciated the kind responses to what I shared, but I can’t take the contention and disruption of people like “Zang” who are so grossly rude and ignorant, and who continue to force their unwelcome views on the rest of us.
The church, like every other organization in the world, attracts its share of crazy people, and I guess we have them here too. As an honorable person, I would be horrified if in this situation, I had offended so many people that they were asking me to withdraw, and then have the audacity to basically tell everyone to “shove it.” Thank you Brian for being such a high caliber individual. I’m sure you must get your kicks from this…………………..
I wish Mr. Snuffer would intervene and act on the wishes of so many who have asked “Zang” to cease and desist, but Denver has obviously decided to leave this an open comment forum, and I must respect his choice as the owner of this blog.
Farewell.
Anonymous (September 23, 2010 12:49 PM )-
ReplyDeleteIf you use a feedreader for comments (as I do), you can use yahoo pipes to create a filtered feed, removing anyones comments who you'd rather not see.
Here's a feed of the comments without Zang, that you can subscribe to:
http://pipes.yahoo.com/juteszembe/dscommentswozang
Here's a feed with ONLY comments made by Denver:
http://pipes.yahoo.com/juteszembe/dscommentsonlydenver
You might find them useful.
It's not hard to just skip comments we don't find virtuous, lovely, uplifting, of good report, or praiseworthy.
ReplyDeleteNo one is under obligation to read every single comment. It's our own choice what we read and what we don't.
I think many comments have provided balance. It gives ALL of us the chance to learn and make choices. If you feel to skip some, well then skip them.
Zang, I don't mind you being here. Stay if you wish. I don't always agree with you, but your still allowed to participate, learn and worship as your conscience dictates. Isn't that what we all believe? I allow zang that privilege. I attempt to make my worship and learning my own business, and not have it be so affected by someone else's.
Some commenters and often people in life give us a chance to love someone who may have differing views. In my view, that is the road to happiness.
Zang if you want to be a part of the blog and part of the on going comments, I accept you. We don't agree on lots of things but regardless, you gain my brotherhood as a fellow human being. We would all do well to at least consider some of the criticism we each get, but you're still loved Zang family.
ReplyDeleteWell, if TREVOR gives his permission for Zang to carry on, who are we to argue with the authority of TREVOR?
ReplyDeleteToo bad it's only supposed authority (and no power) which TREVOR has.
P.S. Unfortunately, you don't know if the comment is going to be screwball until you've read it. I know to skip over Zang's now. (I keep picturing Adam Lambert singing Zang World to the music of Tears for Fears' Mad World. LOL.)
FYI, my previous comment was made tongue-in-cheek. Brian, I enjoy looking outside of the box. If a viewpoint doesn't appeal to me, I just stick it on the shelf. Maybe I'll come back to it later if the Spirit tells me to. Maybe not. But regardless, I'm edified by different possibilities. Isn't that what we are to do anyway? Use the Spirit to ultimately teach us?
ReplyDeleteAt first glance, don't Denver's comments rock the "paradigm boat?" Didn't the Savior shake things up with His teachings? How are we ever to know what is truth if we don't put it to the test?
I'm with you, Trevor. Brian, keep us looking outside the box.
---Doug
I wish we could all let people comment as they please. The CM will moderate as she sees fit and the rest of us can skip anything we don't like. I don't think there is need to accuse and contend. I personally enjoy reading varied viewpoints, and, as a woman, I think the spirit of Zang's posts regarding polygamy really resonated well with me. Personally, if I were a multiple wife, I'd rather have the option to be able to eventually have a monogamous relationship with another man, if he had finally applied the atonement and was found worthy to now be in the CK. That sounds like agency (the woman could choose to have a polygamous or monogamous relationship with her choice of man) and mercy (allowing the atonement to continue to refine individuals, even if it takes longer for some) to me. I don't pretend to know how the whole plural marriage thing is going to shake out in the end. I am just glad I don't have to worry about it now. I am happily and monogamously married. I just know if we seek Christ everything will work out. There is no need to get all huffy about these details we don't yet have.
ReplyDelete@Anon Sept 23, 2010 2:24
ReplyDeleteI never claimed authority. Didn't need to, it was already obvious I was a nobody. I was doing what I can, in my own way to live in a way pleasing to God, and have charity towards my fellow Saint, by gentleness, meekness, kindness, love unfeigned. Things scriptures teach that convert people. I may not say everything right but I tried. My comment to Zang was personal, I did not say or do anything in behalf of anyone else. I offered my view that I personally allow him the privilege stated in the articles of faith of worshiping according to his own conscience. Something all of us presumably believe in.
On page 192 of Second Comforter, Denver addresses what I think would be relevant to this comment thread.
You too are free to say and do as you wish.
Whoever posted that Joseph taught against something he himself lived, needs to keep reading. He only stated that he agreed that plural marriage was a big cause for the outside world wanting to destroy him. Joseph had 35 known wives, probably more. He had many in his private circle of friends whom he trusted the most to live it as well.
ReplyDeleteBrian Hales gave a great presentation at this years FAIR lds conference. Here is most of his presentation on his website: http://www.josephsmithspolygamy.com
http://www.josephsmithspolygamy.com/JSMotives/RestoredOTPolygamy.html
More defense of true mormonism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5efAtg54MgI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTiHPmMvWmA
www.wivesofjosephsmith.org for a list of his wifes put together by church publications.
"There is nothing short of complete apostasy, a complete denial of every principle we have received, a throwing away of the Holy Priesthood, that can save us from persecution. When this takes place, when all the chief features of the Gospel are obliterated, when we can float along the stream and do as the world does, then and not till then will persecution cease, or until the adversary is bound." (George Q. Cannon, 15 May 1881, Journal of Discourses, Volume 22, page 374)
If God has introduced something for our glory and exaltation, we are not going to have that kicked over by any improper influence, either inside or outside of the Church of the living God. We will stand by the principles of eternal truth; living we will proclaim them, and dying we will be true to them, and after death will live again in their enjoyment in the eternal worlds. That is my feeling; so I don't feel very trembly in the knees, and I do not think you do, generally. I see sometimes a disposition to try to ignore some of the laws which God has introduced, and this is one of them. People want to slip round a corner, or creep out in some way. There is something very creepy about it. (JD 25:309-10)
My goodness, what has happened here? I have found questions with many posters here, but respect the right for such opinions, and pass on those not confirmed by the spirit. The personal attack on the Zang family is not to me a Christ like action.
ReplyDeleteI myself have found their posts well formed and enlighteing, and even though not all of them go along with my understanding, they always give me food for contemplation.
I feel the spirit of contention displayed on this segment has certainly not brought forth the correct atmosphere for progressing. Perhaps we should converse in a manner of reasoning together. We may get somewhere where some reason could prevail!
There is nothing that would so soon weaken my hope and discourage me as to see this people in full fellowship with the world, and receive no more persecution from them because they are one with them. In such an event, we might bid farewell to the Holy Priesthood with all its blessings, privileges and aids to exaltations, principalities and powers in the eternities of the Gods. (JD 10:32)
ReplyDeleteWhen we see the time that we can willingly strike hands and have full fellowship with those who despise the Kingdom of God, know ye then that the Priesthood of the Son of God is out of your possession. Let us be careful how we make friends with and fellowship unrighteousness, lest the curse of God descends heavily upon us. (JD 10:273)
When "Mormonism" finds favor with the wicked in this land, it will have gone into the shade; but until the power of the Priesthood is gone, "Mormonism" will never become popular with the wicked. (JD 4:38)
"The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot REIGN AS KINGS IN GLORY, because they had blessings offered unto them and they refused to accept them." --Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 11:268-9
ReplyDelete"Hear it, ye elders of Israel, and mark it down in your logbooks: the fullness of the Gospel is the United Order and the Order of Plural Marriage; and without these two principles this gospel never can be full. And I much fear that when I am gone this people will give up these two principles which we prize so highly; and if they do this church cannot advance as God wishes it to advance." Brigham Young, ST George Temple Dedication 1877.
LDS Apostle George Teasdale 1884:
"I believe in the fullness of the everlasting Gospel. I believe Plural Marriage as a part of the Gospel, just as much as I believe baptism by immersion for the remisison of sins. The same being who taught me baptism... taught me plural marriage AND ITS NECESSITY AND GLORY. Can I afford to give up a single principle? I can not. If I had to give up one principle I would have to give up my religion... I bear my solemn testimony that plural marriage is as true as any principle that has bean revealed from the heavens. I bear my testimony that IT IS A NECESSITY, and that the Church of Christ in its fullness never existed without it. Where you have the eternity of marriage you are bound to have plural marriage; bound to; and it is one of the marks of the Church of Jesus Christ in its sealing ordinances." JD 25 P 21
Heber C Kimball, 1866, JD 11:210-211:
...The revelations which Joseph Smith has given to this people were given to him by Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world; and this people cannot be blessed if they lightly esteem any of them, but they will lose the spirit, and sorrow and vexation will come into their families... for this purpose did he give the revelation on the plurality of wives, as sacred a revelation as was ever given to any people... (he quotes D&C:) "And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received, which vanity and unbelief hath brought the whole church under condemnation; and this condemnation restest upon the children of Zion, even all, and they shall remain under condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon AND THE FORMER COMMANDMENTS WHICH I HAVE GIVEN THEM, not only to say, BUT TO DO ACCORDING TO THAT WHICH I HAVE WRITTEN..." He continues: If our wives would remember and keep faithfully the covenant they have made, they would observe the laws of their husbands, and teach their children to honor every law of God, and to love, honor and obey their earthly Father. ... "Woe be unto him that has the law given; yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state."... May God bless the righteous, but the men or women who raise their voices or use their influence against the holy order of plural marraige will be cursed, and they WILL WITHER AWAY, for they have undertaken to fight against God. "For behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up..."
John Taylor: "What would be necessary to bring about the results nearest the hearts of the opponents of Mormonism? Simply to renounce, abrogate, or apostatize from the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage in its Fulness. Were the Church to do that as an entirety, God would reject the saints as a body. The authority of the priesthood would be withdrawn with its gifts and powers and there would be no more heavenly recognition of the administrations. The heavens would permananltly withdraw themselves, and the lord would raise up another people of greater valor and stability. For His work must, according to His unalterable decrees, go forward; for the time of the second coming of the Savior is near, even at the doors." ---Deseret News, 23 April 1885
ReplyDeleteOctober 6-7, 1884
John Taylor:
God has given us a revelation in regard to celestial marriage.. I did not make it. He has told us certain things pertaining to this matter, and they would like us to tone that principle down and change it and make it applicable to the views of the day. This we cannot do; nor can we interfere with any of the commands of God to meet the persuasions or behests of men. I cannot do it, and will not do it. I find some men try to twist round the principle in any way and every way they can. They want to sneak out of it in some way. Now God don't want any kind of sycophancy like that. He expects that we will be true to Him, and to the principles He has developed, and to feel as Job did—"Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him." Though other folks would slay us, yet we will trust in the living God and be true to our covenants and to our God. These are my feelings in relation to that matter. We have also been told that "it is not mete that men who will not abide my law shall preside over my Priesthood," and yet some people would like very much to do it. Well, they cannot do it; because if we are here, as I said before, to do the will of our Father who sent us, and He has told us what to do, we will do it, in the name of Israel's God—and all who sanction it say Amen—[the vast congregation responded with a loud "Amen."]—and those that don't may say what they please. [Laughter.] If God has introduced something for our glory and exaltation, we are not going to have that kicked over by any improper influence, either inside or outside of the Church of the living God. We will stand by the principles of eternal truth; living we will proclaim them, and dying we will be true to them, and after death will live again in their enjoyment in the eternal worlds. That is my feeling; so I don't feel very trembly in the knees, and I do not think you do, generally. I see sometimes a disposition to try to ignore some of the laws which God has introduced, and this is one of them. People want to slip round a corner, or creep out in some way. There is something very creepy about it. (JD 25:309-10)
Sorry if I stepped on any toes. No harm intended.
ReplyDeleteWhoever said it really doesn't matter who asked me to keep commenting is right, but I don't see the need to be banished.
However, I can always use a good rebuke to reform. All of you are lucky since you're only exposed to my faults as long as you read my comments. I have to live with my faults ;)
I do believe my rough edges will become more polished, so thanks for the help in that regard. If some of you find it hard to forgive me for those rough edges, I sincerely wish you'd reconsider. We don't have to be friends, but at least we can get rid of hard feelings.
I look forward to moving on and learning more in the blog and the comments! Ben has put up a filter that excludes all of my comments if what I write is not to your liking. Like I said, I'm not above repenting and reforming, so what I write may get better in that regard if I can accomplish that reforming well enough.
But a lot of what I write is also true, and the truth is not always popular. If it's true, the Holy Ghost will confirm it. If not, then I'm nobody of consequence to deserve all this commotion. I don't have any plans to write anything else, but when something interesting comes up, of course I'd like to be able to share my thoughts.
Zang.... I'm always glad to read the thoughts you share as well as others who share thoughts and opinions. Hang in there. We are all students here...
ReplyDelete-respectfully
:)
I'm writing this late and maybe no one will view it. I believe that polygamy will be equitable for all parties in that it won't be just for the males in the celestial kingdom. Women are equal with men ... we are taught that in the temple endowment. The celestial kingdom is going to be very different than what we think. Expand your minds and think outside of the box. Not all knowledge/principles/ordinances have been given to mortals. And no, I am not a feminist. I am a traditional, old-fashioned, LDS woman who believes God is just and merciful. Adam and Eve were created in the Garden ... it wasn't Adam, Eve, Lilith, Beth and so on and so forth. Polygamy is a celestial law, but we don't know what all it entails ... The only way polgyamy would be equitable for all parties is for women to have the same advantage that men do. Now that would end pride for all wouldn't it? Just think men ... if all of a sudden your wife would have the same advantage as you, wouldn't that create a mind-shift and spirit-shift? So don't discount the possibility of an equitable polgyamous principle.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 12:15,
ReplyDeleteI totally agree. I firmly believe plural marriage will go both ways in the millenium & in the Cel. K.
In fact, most likely, women will have far more spouses than men in the next life, for additional 'spouses' are a blessing according to obedience & the Prophets say women are usually more righteous than men.
As Pres. Joseph F. Smith taught, there is no gift or blessing that Heavenly Father gives to his sons that he doesn't also give to his daughters. He is saying alot right there, hinting about women having powers, positions & privileges we have always considered just 'male blessings'.
I seriously can't believe how much of a tangent people can take off on as far as comments go. I am glad you posted all of this mess so that we can get an idea of what you are really experiencing, as far as comments go, in relation to your inspiring posts.
ReplyDeleteFor myself, I am also sad that we are not going to continue on with directed exploration of the "remnant" and feel somewhat cheated by all this irrelevant chatter in the comment department. (I realize I could skip the comments altogether, but sifting through them has proved to be beneficial, for some have inspired further thoughts and study.)
I do understand that the topic of the remnant may come up as a consequence of discussion of other topics, but it was so nice to be instructed more exclusively on that topic.
Thank you once again for your willingness to share.
To the poster who posted all the quotes about polygamy - I ask you -
ReplyDeleteWhere are all the quotes that admitted & talked about how horrible a sacrifice it was for women to live polygamy? Quotes that talked about how it was such a great sacrifice that women made to give up their life & die a slow death living polygamy, so more children might have life?
Joseph Smith had True Love for Emma. For that is an absolute requirement to be a true Prophet. It does not make sense that such a man would do what others say he did, that he had all these women behind Emma's back, if he truely loved her. They as a couple would have handled it maturely. For Emma was one of the greatest, strongest & most valiant women to have ever walk the earth, so how or why would she lie for the rest of her life about Joseph living polygamy if he really did? Why would Brigham say the horrible things about her that some say he did? None of it makes any sense.
We are not hearing the whole truth about it all & won't until Joseph & Emma return.
Above all, when polygamy is discussed, the 1st thing that must be realized is, whether it is divinely authorized or not, is that:
1- most men will like the idea of polygamy & go along with it, it is not a test for most men, it is a perk, for it is the natural carnal & devilish desire of most men to desire variety & more than one woman. Righteous men do not need or crave variety. A righteous man will be repulsed by polygamy. (So it was not a hard thing for most men in the Church back then, unless they truely loved their wives which, by the way they lived polygamy, seeking after women themselves, it seems most did 'not' really love their wives & put her feelings 1st above their own.)
And 2- It must be realized & admitted that it is a fate or trial 'worse than death' & especially worse than almost any other horrific abuse known to women, for a woman to have to suffer. Polygamy is the Lord asking men to take the life of their wife by breaking her heart,(for most women emotionally die from it & also slowly physically die from the abuse & torment of it) like God asked Abraham to sacrifice Issac. Polygamy is a most horrific & torturous abuse of women for the rest of her life. This is especially true if the wife is righteous, for weak & unrighteous women usually go into denial & deny the pain & abuse of it all & even often say they like polygamy & think it's wonderful.
This fact must be understood & admitted before anyone can understand or know if it was or is being lived correctly by anyone.
If a man is truly righteous, he would truly love his wife & thus would rather die than hurt her by taking another wife. A righteous woman would rather die than live polygamy & endure her husband living with another woman. Of course they would not jump off a cliff if commanded to live this principle, but they would not like it either & it would cause them both severe suffering for the rest of their lives. This must be understood.
Children watching their parents living polygamy is very destructive & horrible for them to watch. The children grow up with the fear that they will have to be abused in that same way by a husband or have to abuse a wife in that way.
I have never read where anyone, even leaders, have acknowledged the reality of the extreme abusiveness & torment of polygamy, even when divinely authorized.
Where are the quotes of the anguish of righteous men who hated living it & hurting their wives so? Where are the sincere & tearsome apologies of men to have to do that to their wives? Where is the instruction to men to let their wives do the choosing of another wife & to never neglect the 1st wife because of a 2nd. Or where is the instruction to not even practice it unless the wife consented & agreed her husband truly loved & cared for her enough & could meet all her needs & desires, before taking on another.
continued...
ReplyDeleteFor usually only a wife knows if her husband is really righteous & worthy & loves & serves her enough to be worthy & able to keep another wife happy too. Most men can easily fool most leaders into thinking they are righteous when they aren't.
If a righteous man was asked by God to live it, he would feel more depressed, live in greater sorrow & shed more tears continually throughout his life because of how he has to hurt his wife & take another, then even his wife would.
For who do you think suffered worse, for having to offer the sacrifice, Abraham or Issac? Who suffers more, the one applying the pain or the one feeling it? If a person is righteous, they feel more pain causing suffering than the one required to suffer.
Most of the best of women in the early Church secretly suffered & hated polygamy, but were forced to put on a smile about it all, while their husbands flirted with, checked out & ran after & collected other women, while they themselves were often sorely neglected.
Men took on far more women then they could ever take care of properly. Even the best of men can't care for & keep happy more than probably 1 or 2 women.
Righteous women often spoke up against their husbands unrighteous manner of living polygamy but many kept their true feelings hidden because of the threat of punishment by leaders if they revealed how they truly felt about it all. Many weak women went into denial, which is the natural thing to do when abused, & said how wonderful it all was & how they believed in it & liked it.
I realize tht it may be possible to receive a vision from God to help see & deal with polygamy better, but that is & was very rare.
In the Celestial Kingdom, it will most likely be different to share husbands & wives if necessary. But here on earth it is one of the severest forms of abuse that a man can do to a woman, even if Gods commands a man to do that to his wife.
Very few people even realize, let alone admit the truth about the horrors of polygamy, even when authorized by God. Until they do, they cannot understand or live it correctly.