In the preceding verses Nephi has changed from giving his own advice and counsel to quoting the Lord. He began in verse 30 with the words: "behold, thus saith the Lord" and continues quoting Him through the end of that chapter and into the next.
The third "wo" was pronounced by Nephi as a quote from the Lord. The "cursing of the gentiles" was pronounced by Nephi as a quote from the Lord.
Now I didn't point that out as we went through the materials. It is significant enough that it requires additional attention.
Christ has divided judgment up into two separate functions. For those who will be blessed, He will delegate the honor of blessing to others, including His twelve at Jerusalem, (Matt. 19: 28, 1 Ne. 12: 9) and twelve Nephite disciples (3 Ne. 27: 27). Their judgment is honorary, however, because they are given no discretion in the matter. The Lord will decide the judgment. It is His alone, so as to insure it will be the right decision. (3 Ne. 27: 27.) For those who are to be cursed, however, Christ will be the one who pronounces the judgment. (D&C 29: 27-29.)
It is of terrible significance that these statements come from the Lord who alone holds the right to judge. He sacrificed His life for all, and is the Savior and Redeemer, seeking to save all who will come to Him. This is the same Lord who pronounces the words through Nephi: "Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost. Wo be unto the Gentiles, saith the Lord God of Hosts!" (2 Ne. 28: 31-32.)
The message is delivered by Nephi. The words are the Lord's. The merciful and loving Christ who suffered for all that they might not suffer if they would repent (D&C 19: 16), is announcing His pessimism about the latter-day gentile effort to obtain repentance. Why do we seem destined to fail? Why is repentance so difficult for us? What terrible "precepts of men" hold us bound in chains that we cannot break free.
The third "wo" was pronounced by Nephi as a quote from the Lord. The "cursing of the gentiles" was pronounced by Nephi as a quote from the Lord.
Now I didn't point that out as we went through the materials. It is significant enough that it requires additional attention.
Christ has divided judgment up into two separate functions. For those who will be blessed, He will delegate the honor of blessing to others, including His twelve at Jerusalem, (Matt. 19: 28, 1 Ne. 12: 9) and twelve Nephite disciples (3 Ne. 27: 27). Their judgment is honorary, however, because they are given no discretion in the matter. The Lord will decide the judgment. It is His alone, so as to insure it will be the right decision. (3 Ne. 27: 27.) For those who are to be cursed, however, Christ will be the one who pronounces the judgment. (D&C 29: 27-29.)
It is of terrible significance that these statements come from the Lord who alone holds the right to judge. He sacrificed His life for all, and is the Savior and Redeemer, seeking to save all who will come to Him. This is the same Lord who pronounces the words through Nephi: "Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost. Wo be unto the Gentiles, saith the Lord God of Hosts!" (2 Ne. 28: 31-32.)
The message is delivered by Nephi. The words are the Lord's. The merciful and loving Christ who suffered for all that they might not suffer if they would repent (D&C 19: 16), is announcing His pessimism about the latter-day gentile effort to obtain repentance. Why do we seem destined to fail? Why is repentance so difficult for us? What terrible "precepts of men" hold us bound in chains that we cannot break free.
Several have made comments on the question of how we are to repent and come to Christ. There is a fundamental first step to be taken which the Lord has explained repeatedly in His teachings. I have written about this often, including in my first and last books.
In the chapter on the Atonement in Come, Let Us Adore Him
there is an explanation given of what Christ suffered and what obligations are devolving on us as a result. We must do as He did, suffer in like manner, and forgive all offenses. His infinite suffering cannot be replicated in one sense, but in our own sphere and time we do suffer offenses and abuses. We are required to forgive as He forgave. It is our own forgiveness of others that qualifies us to receive forgiveness from Him. When we harbor grudges and resentments, we cut ourselves off from His Atonement. IF we are to be forgiven we must in turn FORGIVE others. In The Second Comforter
it is shown how we must make intercession on behalf of others, even our enemies, if we are to have a hope in Christ. We must lay down the burden of sin to enter into His presence. Much of that "sin" in each of our lives has been the offenses against us, and the resentment and anger we hold from these abuses. There are people who have done you wrong. There are some who did so intentionally. When you forgive them, and plead on their behalf for the Lord to also forgive them in sincerity and love, you are not far from the Kingdom of Heaven. Your Lord did this. You must do as He did to be like Him. It is the only way to understand your Lord. In this, you must suffer as He did, choosing to forgive offenses rather than to seek justice. When you show mercy, you merit mercy. The beginning of repentance is found in forgiving others.Your just claims for retribution must be surrendered. Your worthy desire to have vindication must be abandoned. Your right to have judgment against the ones who abused you must be forfeited. And you must go on to pray for their forgiveness.
If you have read all I have written you already know this. I am disappointed to have those who have not read what I've written trying to make sense of this blog. It will make absolutely no sense if it is not seen as an extension of what I've already covered. Even this brief statement about the relationship between your own salvation and redemption through following Christ is a brief note, a cryptic signal, and altogether inadequate to explain the matter. The careful, patient and fulsome explanation has been laid out elsewhere in what I've written. You must go there to see why, along with the many places in scripture where the Lord has made the matter clear.
Nephi takes no delight in pronouncing these wo's and writing the "cursing" the latter-day gentiles face. The Lord takes even less. He suffered and died to make salvation possible for these very same latter-day gentiles. He would save them all. But to do so it is absolutely necessary to bluntly warn those whom He loves. Enos recorded his own ministry and how it was affected by the audience he addressed: "And there was nothing save it was exceeding harshness, preaching and prophesying of wars, and contentions, and destructions, and continually reminding them of death, and the duration of eternity, and the judgments and the power of God, and all these things—stirring them up continually to keep them in the fear of the Lord. I say there was nothing short of these things, and exceedingly great plainness of speech, would keep them from going down speedily to destruction. And after this manner do I write concerning them." (Enos 1: 23.)
Why would a joyful Lord, who delights in our own happiness, speak in terms of "wo's" and "cursing" to us? What is it about us as His audience that compels Him to rebuke us? Have you thought of the standard in Section 121 ("reproving betimes with sharpness when moved upon by the Holy Ghost") as part of this rebuke?
He so completely loves us that John equated Him with love. (1 John 4: 8.) Can you imagine the frustration it causes our Lord to have to speak in these terms to us?
Why do we not repent? Why do we harbor and protect our sins? Why do we worship men rather than God? Why do we cleave to the precepts of men rather than the Holy Ghost? Why do we resist the truth when it is declared to us. Why do we demand that the truth be conformed to our understanding of the precepts of men? Why do we measure the things of God against our own traditions? Why do we not abandon instantly our false notions, and stop arguing against the truth which is in Christ? Why do we think any institution, fellowship, association or man can lead us to salvation instead of Christ alone who can save? (2 Ne. 31: 19.)
How long will you harden your heart against your Lord, whose pleas are aimed only at saving your soul? Why turn away and say that you prefer membership in a great and spacious building, pointing an accusing finger at those who would lead you to eternal life? (1 Ne. 8: 26-31.) Your awards and honors are nothing. Your recognition and praise is corrosion. Everything here is doomed to decay, rot and fail. (Matt. 6: 19-20.) This is the Telestial Kingdom. Everything here, every institution, organization and order is Telestial. None of it will survive death. (D&C 132: 7.) Even the one association intended to endure (the family) will not endure unless it is through the Holy Spirit of Promise.
If you are going to be rescued from this Telestial Kingdom, it will be Christ who rescues you. His arm has been stretched out to you as long as you have been here, and it will remain stretched out until you depart here. If you are not saved, it will be because of your rejection of Him, not His rejection of you. He has done all He could. He has sent stern warnings, warm invitations, cheerful messengers, the dignified and the undignified, to show in all things He is willing to meet you more than half way. Those who reject these widely different invitations are accountable for their failure. (Matt. 11: 7-24.)
The Lord continually asks: "What more could I have done?" (Jacob 5: 41, 47, 49, 75; 2 Ne. 15: 4.)
Apparently we will only accept the "precepts of men" and trust the "arm of flesh" and therefore merit the coming disappointments.
Come unto Christ and be saved.
Forgiveness is so pivotal. It is what shifted my relationship with my spouse. Not getting mad over petty things and letting go of meaningless phrases that are said in the heat of the moment and focusing on what is truly important in our relationship. Forgiving our children and remembering that they are children. Understanding others and knowing that we are all learning is also so key to forgiveness. I believe we have families (personal, ward, community) to practice this over and over. Thank you for reminding us of the importance of forgivness.
ReplyDeleteTina
I have so much to learn. Thank you for this great lesson which for me represents the absolute key to one's own peace on this earth and eternal life in the world to come.
ReplyDeleteDenver, I have a question. Is this life truly the Telestial Kingdom? Or would it be more correct to say Telestial World? Is this world merely a pattern of what its future representative kingdom will be like? Coupled with glory? The Kingdom being arrayed in a glory more like unto the glimmer of the stars, I.e. 1000 times better than this earth? Or is this simply it? My thought was maybe that the glory of this earth in its current state represents outer darkness to which satan and his angels have been cast? I know that this may appear as a technical question and maybe the answer is not that important. But I feel like it is an important question in trying to understand who I really am and where I really came from as well as trying to have a better perspective of what's really at stake.
Shakespeare's Hamlet is a great counter-example for this post. Hamlet sees his father's ghost and learns of how his father was murdered. His father's ghost is sentimental and loving to his son, yet calls for just retribution. Hamlet sets out brilliantly to discover the truth of the message and concludes maybe this is an evil spirit, so he needs concrete proof of the facts. After having obtained the proof, he is convinced it is his father that truly visited him.
ReplyDeleteNow the rub, though it was his father, and though sentimentality existed, the father as a spirit unwittingly sent Hamlet to his destruction by calling for retribution. Hamlet detects that it really was his father visiting him, but he doesn't detect the false gospel he is being preached. He takes revenge and destroys his soul as well as his mother's and lover's in the mix, bringing them all down to hell with his father's spirit. And his father surely didn't intend to destroy Hamlet, he just wanted company, right?
...and that is why Hamlet is called a tragedy. No other person could be seen to be more just in their pursuit than Hamlet in his revenge on his uncle...but was it worth it? Thank you, Shakespeare, for the timely lesson. Poor, poor Hamlet. Oh horrible, horrible Hamlet!
ReplyDeleteThis is just a hypothetical, I don't know enough about problems to make any claims, but: if there may be something rotten in Utah, does that mean we should pursue a course of retribution? That is the difference between an apostate and a disciple. They both see the same problems, but react quite differently. One retaliates with revenge for justice, one intercedes with mercy, in my opinion.
Look at William Law in the early history of the Church (ironic name). He thought he was in the right in bringing Joseph to justice. The paper he published used language calling for retribution against supposed or real crimes. He called on the murderous Missourians to swell them to mob violence, and it worked. He got Joseph killed. Was it worth it to have the blood of a Prophet on his hands for supposed justice?
Yet Joseph consistently surrounded himself with friends who reproved him of his faults and hashed out councils with widely different opinions. He never called them apostates. The apostates were the ones who thirsted for his blood and ceased working things out in councils. They were not the ones who simply had differences of opinions, or who rebuked evil. The Prophet let teachers into his house and welcomed the reproofs. Only the wicked are angry at the truth.
I feel the most difficult part for me is to forgive myself. I don't know why it is so hard to do.... but it has been for me. Losing my wife and family through divorce has been the most painful and difficult part of my life. Seeing each of my 6 children struggle through their lives.... none remaining active in the gospel.... and seeing their mother leave the church and follow another path....and especially the specific family things promised in my patriarchal blessing that I've lost.... I continue to beat myself up over.... if only I had done this better... or that better, things would have turned out better.... my family would still be together. Of course we still see each other and have wonderful times.... we had a wonderful birthday party with my 3rd son (now 30) last night at our home.... I continue to look at the bigger picture of their standing and my standing before the Savior.... and I ache about it.... and assume it is my fault... if only. So for me, forgiving myself has been the most difficult and painful process. I know the Lord will forgive me for my shortcomings.... I've yet to hear His voice on it.... so Amen to your comment Brother Snuffer.... they were good to read this morning.
ReplyDeleteGordon: August 7, 2010 10:39 PM comment:
ReplyDeleteHyrum L. Andrus has 3 volumes published in the 1970's which has a detail study of the covenants that the Lord made with all these 'authoritative' characters and how they apply to the restoration - how they were given to and used by Joseph Smith. Vol II - Principles of Perfection and III Doctrines of the Kingdom take the gospel subjects beginning with faith and work in a systemic manner through the establishment of the Kingdom of God preparatory to the Millennial reign.
The Scriptures and Joseph are his primary sources and he documents every statement so you know exactly where he is coming from and you can check each source in his source notes.
Denver writes of each of this subjects but his approach is different but adds its own life to each subject that Andrus covers - Andrus is more like a text than Denver's - For me they are inseparable companions. Comparing the works of the two men is like comparing apples and oranges - very different in texture and taste, but together they make a great fruit salad.
Andrus books are out of print but Amazon has all of them used for a pretty good price. I have recommended them to several people who have ordered them and they have been happy with what they have received. The title of the first volume is God, Man and the Universe.
Anonymous post of August 9, 2010 8:27 AM, I am in somewhat less than the minority here because I dissent from the view of the many concerning (a) this earth, (b) this world.
ReplyDeleteWithout going into specifics, the ancients understood there were two kinds of [planetary] bodies, namely: Terrestrial and Celestial. They had a specific line of demarcation that divided celestial bodies from terrestrial bodies (called the "bracelet of heaven").
This earth is called "terre firma" the root being "terre" -- one and the as used in terrestrial. This earth, then is a terrestrial body.
This world, on the other hand, is something quit different and deals with humanity, or some grouping(s) of humanity. Joseph pointed this out.
Given this, when one says this is a telestial, terrestrial, or a celestial world they must have reference to something that makes a distinction between one or more select groups of humanity.
The most logical, rational, and common sense division of humanity is by government (may or may not be based upon geography), or the laws of a culture. In a prior post, I listed and defined the characteristics of each style of government: Celestial (sacrifice), Terrestrial (justice), Telestial (force).
With this prospectus, it is easy to understand references to the "end of the world" as being a change is a government, the disappearance of a government (culture), or in the worst case, an extinction level event, where government (humanity) is totally destroyed.
_____________
An example of an ELE would be the combination of Isaiah 13:13
"Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts" [KJV]
which calamities would cause the fulfilling of Zephaniah 1:2-3:
"I shall sweep away everything off the face of the earth, declares Yahweh. I shall sweep away humans and animals, the birds of the air and the fish of the sea, I shall topple the wicked and wipe all people off the face of the earth -declares Yahweh." [NJB]
Resulting in a new heaven and a new earth:
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away .." [Rev 21:1]
and the old reckoning of time would be done away with:
"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind" [Isaiah 65:17]
And the next world's, or the world to come's government will be established:
"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God ... And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new." [Rev 21:2-3, 5]
Pretty exciting, pretty scary!
Now all we have to do is just become a part of the "Zion" that is lifted up to the mount
"on Mount Zion will be those who have escaped -it will be a sanctuary" [Obadiah 1:17 NJB]
PS: Don't you just love the "minor" prophets?
Stone,
ReplyDeleteThank you very much for taking the time to reply to my question and thank you for the very thoughtful and rich ideas you share. So, in your view, is there a difference between a world and a kingdom? Satan says, regarding the telestial world, "you have looked over my kingdom." And yet I believe we also mention in the Temple the Terrestrial "World" and Celestial "World" right? Do these become kingdoms after the proper form of government takes over that particular world? I am guessing satan will not exist in even the Telestial Kingdom right? Or not? At some level even in the kingdoms there must be opposition right? Else would lucifer have ever fallen? Any further thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
Thank you.
JS said that the world is the human family.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous of August 9, 2010 2:07 PM,
ReplyDeleteI guess I should have been more explicit in my prior post. There was a network error and I thought it had all been lost.
Let me clarify
In a more technical sense, a Kingdom would be the system of laws and a government is the implementation (sometimes imposition) of those laws. A kingdom may or may not have subjects (at the very least, a kingdom must have one member [the king] or it becomes a mute point); it may or may not have extensive territorial holdings.
In its' simplest form a kingdom could be a man and his castle (house). A little more complex, he could have a family under his jurisdiction. Larger yet, would be some kind of community. You see the progression.
As regarding the Temple drama, the telestial, terrestrial and celestial "kingdoms" mentioned are representative [forms] of governments.
Hence when Satan talks about looking of his kingdom, just as he did with Christ, he is talking about those subjects of under his "power" (telestial is ruled by force, or power).
Reading D&C 76:71-80, one can see the Terrestrial "kingdom" is governed by the principles of "saving justice" (saving one from the lone and dreary world of force).
To get from a lone and dreary world "governed" by force to a world governed by saving justice; do you suppose you would have to agree to "act" according to the laws that sustain saving justice? And what is the Law of the Gospel? Isn't it really the codification of the law of justice?
We'll forgo any discussion of the advancement from a "terrestrial" to a "celestial" government other than to say the law of sacrifice comes into play.
A very careful reading of the scriptures indicates, that even in the millennium, all three of these "world" kingdoms will exist as evidenced that towards the end, "Satan will be loosed a season" (here are a host of implications involved with such ideas; and a small commental post such as this can not do it justice).
One has to ask the question, if this earth is to be the "celestial" kingdom, where do the "telestialites" and the "terrestrialites" go? I suppose if they were to go nowhere but here, that would answer a lot of questions raised in Job chapters 1 & 2, where it seems "Satan" has pretty fair access and interaction with "other angels" and "God", wouldn't it? It would seem there is a substantial amount of "traffic" between kingdoms (D&C 76:86-7).
As for the "fall" of Satan--from the teachings we can see "Satan" proposed a system of laws (government) that would save all (government of force); and when it is rejected, his rebellion, by setting up a government styled after his proposition, causes him to violates the laws of the Gods. Consequently he is expelled and exiled by force--and yet is able to set up a kingdom.
We notice, in order to do this, he must have been a "high ranking" official (some say he spoke first, others say he spoke second) and therefore had "priesthood" in the classical senses of the word: (a) was a part of the government of God; (b) part of a 'leadership' group; (c)had a great deal of power and authority.
Ah, DS so demonstrates the depth of the Book of Mormon as "guide book" for negotiating our way out from the laws of one kingdom into a much better one. Likewise, the whole of LDS theology becomes a deep pool of knowledge, wisdom and power.
I have to say, I sure did a horrible job editing my last couple of posts ... sorry about that.
ReplyDeleteDear Stone,
ReplyDeleteNo worries on the typos. All very much appreciated. I think I have a much clearer understanding now. So the real difference between the telestial world and the telestial kingdom is that the latter will be ruled by Adam or the Holy Ghost, I presume, and we will no longer have a mortal body but rather a resurrected telestial body. In other words, new king, satan denied access for some measure of time, no weeds, no death, etc. Sound right? I guess part of my struggle to understand hinges upon that which I don't know about immortality and the eternal journey of man. I will continue studying and following this great blog. Thanks again so much for taking the time to respond.
DKD,
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think you have lost your wife & children through divorce? If you have kept your covenants to her, the divorce means nothing to God. It's as good as a blank piece of paper, as BY said. And you are really still 100% completely married, IF you are willing to still stay faithful to her & keep your covenants to her, until she returns & repents, in this life or the next.
The Prophet's teach that it's 'impossible' for a spouse to really divorce a good spouse (in God's eyes they are still married).
Just because evil civil laws today, enacted by corrupt leaders, may allow a spouse to force divorce upon the other spouse, does not mean it's valid.
As Elder Faust said, we shouldn't think that what is legal is what is right.
And even if you had some weaknesses in the marriage that contributed to the divorce you may still have a really good chance of saving your marriage & family in the long run. Your wife may still return & repent someday & repair the marriage, IF you are willing to do your part to have True Love for her, the kind that never ends or gives up.
And you can even save your errant children to be with you in the Celestial Kingdom if you are willing to keep all your covenants, even & especially your marriage covenants to your wife even though she has broken hers by divorcing you. Joseph Smith's greatest & most comforting doctrine he ever taught was that we can save our errant children by keeping all our covenants.
You needn't despair. Things can still turn out wonderful in the end. As Elder Packer said, the 'happily ever after' part comes in the 3rd act of a play, we are only in the 2nd act here in this life.
Though we must eventually, in this life or the next, find forgiveness in our hearts for those who hurt us, forgiveness is only possible because of the assurance of justice. Justice must come before mercy, or at least the promise of Justice.
ReplyDeleteSome wrongs & abuses by others may not be totally healed in this life & we may not be able to totally forgive them until we cross over the veil & finally see the torments that those who have hurt us have to go through in the next life if they don't fully repent here & make their wrongs up to us as much as possible. We will then be able to easily forgive them.
Knowing that those who hurt us are going to have to endure far more suffering at some point for their unrighteous acts than we ever did, gives us the power to forgive them, even to have pity on them & pray for them & even plead for mercy for them.
Anonymous August 9, 2010 10:24 PM,
ReplyDeleteBefore I can really answer your questions, some foundation has to be lain.
First, was the Garden of Eden an idyllic place? I ask this because if you start right it is easy to stay aright, but if you start wrong, it is a hard thing to get aright.
Take a peek at Genesis 2:4-15 [KJV], paying particular attention to vv 5, 7, 8, 9, 15, Following DS's style of careful analysis, watch the sequence of events, then answer the above question.
Since this is DS's blog, this off-point, but wonderfully rich line of reasoning (discussion) should be taken offline from the blog. Not sure how to do it though.
O, BTW, there is a major difference between a resurrected celestial body and those of terrestrial and telestial nature, but for a special reason beyond the obvious. What exactly does resurrect mean anyway?
Stone,
ReplyDeleteIf you take this discussion off line I would love to be included. Leave a comment on my Blog with your Email and I will not approve it so that it will still be private. Anonymous if that works for you, I am willing to facilitate.
This struck a cord with me.
ReplyDelete"What terrible 'precepts of men' hold us bound in chains that we cannot break free?" "Why do we worship men rather than God?" "Why do we demand that the truth be conformed to our understanding of the precepts of men?"
It has been said that after one reads Atlas Shrugged, it's all they can talk about for 2 years. Well, I'm still in that 2 year period.
I find a lot of truth in Ayn Rand's Objectivist philosophy. It has become an academic goal of mine to harmonize (true) Christianity with Objectivism.
I love much of Rand's ideas. Is it wrong for me to try to harmonize (that which can be harmonized) them with Christ's teachings?
I give Christ's teachings and prophetic revelation preemption of any/all conflict.
(Or am I bending Christianity to make it fit what I want it to fit?) I would like to show that Objectivism is, mostly, in harmony with Christ's teachings.
Or is a love of Rand's philosophy holding me back?
But isn't it good to be learned (and study any/all philosophies, as long as I harken the counsels of God?
For example, the biggest clash is that objectivism is based on reason alone. Christianity relies on faith. However, I believe it is reasonable to rely on faith and I don't believe in blind faith. If I feel the spirit repeatedly, and consistently, when I do things that the spirit approves of, is this not evidence that the spirit exists? Is that not rational? Or am I compromising on faith, making faith mean what I want it to mean? Am I afraid to rely on faith more than reason? Yet, I believe the truth is that God expects both. Am I wrong?
Anon who responded to my comment:
ReplyDeleteI've since been remarried and sealed to a wonderful woman. I do not know what will happen with my first sealing. When I was petitioning the first presidency to be sealed to my current wife, I asked that (if possible) my first sealing not be canceled.... if it had to be so, for me to be sealed to my current wife... then so be it.... I'm not sure what to forgive myself of in my first marriage/sealing.... I felt the failure was my responsibility (btw, my first sealing was not canceled and I was given permission to be sealed to my current wife). Meanwhile,It is the promises made in my patriarchal blessing that have not and will not come to pass (so it seems) that break my heart too..... so many unresolved paradoxes... all that self doubt can awful to deal with... While I have moved on, I still feel pain over the loss of a family unit...especially given our LDS teachings about family and eternity.....At this point, I continue to bear testimony to my children and do all I can to persuade them to come to Christ. My present wife and I had a wonderful home evening recently with two of my daughters (and 4 grandchildren). I held my wife's hand a quietly bore testimony of the Savior to them.... I was overwhelmed and wept as I did... I think they (and my wife) were a little startled... I never never cry or get emotional when bearing testimony.... I was overwhelmed as I spoke to them about the magnitude and sacrifice of the Savior.... fwiw, I found Denver's comments about "modifications" and "adjustments" in our family structures (after the judgement) to be most interesting... so my daily efforts and prayers and work are for and in behalf of my family.... forgiveness... it sure seems difficult for some of us to forgive ourselves. :)
Stone.... I'd like to know more... how do we follow through with discussion off blog?
ReplyDeletemy email address: dkd2200@gmail.com
Everybody who would like to be included in the continued discussion post your emails (for those who wish not to have their emails posted, send them to the board and I'll ask DS to forward them to me) and I'll do a batch send.
ReplyDeleteDS and crew, I hope this will be acceptable to you. Even this thread fits hand and glove with what you are doing, I don't want it to disrupt the great work.
Sorry for being gone today, was out of town on a business trip. Thought about the questions while gone, have short answer that I will post after I wind down.
--Stone
Anonymous of August 10, 2010 9:15 AM, I too like Ayn Rand. I hold full faith and knowledge can not be exercised without (a) the power of the intellect; (b) the power of the heart. I do not see objectivism as an opposite or competition, but as a companion. Brigham taught things revealed that were true had to be logical, rational, reasonable, have common sense (this all sounds like the head and intellect) and taste good to the soul (this sounds like the heart)--I say when combined give you great power.
ReplyDeleteTo: In the doghouse: I'll send you my email addy to your blog, all I need to know is the URL for the blog; unless of course it's this one--then, well then--I could feel foolish for asking ....
ReplyDelete--Stone
DKD,
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry to hear that you've remarried.
Yes, the Church usually does keep the sealing intact until the 1st wife asks to be sealed to another, or it's kept intact incase the 1st wife was righteous & the husband was to blame for the divorce, than she would have the right to claim him back in the hereafter.
But if your wife wasn't righteous or kept her covenants to you & you were innocent in the divorce you probably needn't worry about her having the right to call you back to her side in the next life.
In the meantime though, I realize it can be confusing to have the sealing still semi-in tact, while the Church waits to see what your 1st wife decides or merits, before they break it completely, even though you decided to remarry & break the sealing on your end.
For in reality men can only really be truely sealed & faithful to one 'live' woman at a time.
Sorry Stone. If you click on my name above, I believe it will link to my Blog. Or you can click here.
ReplyDeleteThanks.
OK, as promised, here is my short answer:
ReplyDeleteWhat nature does one rise with when they are re-surrected? To re-surrect means to bring forth again. What is brought forth again? The body? The spirit? Both? Neither?
Is not a telestialite still a telestialite? And a terrestrialite a terrestrialite? We won't worry about a celestialite.
When one dies believing and acting according to a particular philosophy of law, even though they have died and been resurrected, their nature has not changed
[Chart]
World (civilization, people); composed of two groupings: (a) freedom-agency; (b)force-fear; each these are comprised of many kingdoms.
Example: States -> united States -> united nations -> humanity. There are many kingdoms (states) in the united States (nation); there are many nations, both free and force based, in the United Nations; and the United Nations is part of the whole of humanity.
[end Chart]
In the "telestial world" there are many "telestial kingdoms". Think in terms of a Venn diagram. Each of these kingdoms are part of the telestial world--a world governed by force--typified by the reign of "blood and horror".
In turn, the telestial world is part of the "world" as a whole. For those who see an "escape" to a better world, the "Holy Ghost" witnesses to them and aids in leading them to "true messengers".
The question is, who is the Holy Ghost? Is there more than one Holy Ghost? If so, who might they be? What would the charge be to the Holy Ghost? How does the Holy Ghost leave, then gain re-entry into the Terrestrial Kingdom?
In kind, the terrestrial kingdoms are governed by the principle of justice and it prerequisite--agency, or freedom of choice. Likewise, each of these kingdoms are part of a greater kingdom (terrestrial world). The archetype is a Priest. Who is the great High Priest?
Do all in the millennium have resurrected bodies? To my knowledge, there is no definitive answer saying "YES". Applying that nasty logic, reason, common sense thingy, we are left with a few questions: For those who survive the near total holocaust of mankind, will they still be mortal? If so, what does that mean? How long will they remain mortal, if they are mortal? If they are not mortal, when did they become "not" mortal? How did they become immortal?
As for weeds etc, the Bible only mentions about God planting a garden that Adam was to tend ... does the "no weeds" apply to the garden only? Or to the earth at large?
Finally, as for where Adam rules depends on one's view of who Adam is.
Doh, I forgot to include the celestial kingdom in the listing; it too is part of a greater kingdom (humanity) and is comprised of 3 sub-kingdoms.
ReplyDeleteFor those grinning, yes--humanity is part of a greater kingdom--see D&C 130:10-11...
So when God stated His purpose, he was also stating the purpose of the society that he is a part of:
"And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.
For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."
Just exactly how cool is this?
< wink > Way, way cool