Alma 13: 13:
"And now, my brethren, I would that ye should humble yourselves before God, and bring forth fruit meet for repentance, that ye may also enter into that rest."
Think about what you're reading here. Alma is essentially declaring himself as one of those possessing this priesthood because he is inviting others to enter into the rest which these people enjoy. That is, "come, join in the rest of the Lord."
Alma has just revealed something profound about himself. It is subtle, but nonetheless true. In meekness he has proffered an invitation. He has not set himself up to be admired. He does not consider himself better. He has delivered the invitation to those to whom he is ministering, just as you would expect someone possessing this great, holy calling to do.
"And now, my brethren, I would that ye should humble yourselves before God, and bring forth fruit meet for repentance, that ye may also enter into that rest."
Think about what you're reading here. Alma is essentially declaring himself as one of those possessing this priesthood because he is inviting others to enter into the rest which these people enjoy. That is, "come, join in the rest of the Lord."
Alma has just revealed something profound about himself. It is subtle, but nonetheless true. In meekness he has proffered an invitation. He has not set himself up to be admired. He does not consider himself better. He has delivered the invitation to those to whom he is ministering, just as you would expect someone possessing this great, holy calling to do.
All the more remarkable is that he extends this invitation to an unredeemed, critical, reproachful audience of unconverted. He does not shield them from these great mysteries.
He does not flinch or hold back because it would be to "cast pearls before swine." He knows where the line is drawn, for in the preceding chapter they have explained to an audience that there are mysteries withheld from the public. (Alma 12: 9-11.) There are things kept from public knowledge and obtained only by heed and diligence. The line involves sacred ordinances, NOT higher knowledge. You give that and you make converts. You withhold it and you blend into the morass of churches who teach merely a form of godliness without any power to save. (JS-H 1: 19.)
It was the same during Christ's ministry. The line is drawn as sacred events turn to ordinances. They are withheld. NOT the teaching of deep doctrine.
So when we refuse to discuss "mysteries" and limit our correlated curriculum to an approved list of 52 subjects, recycling them endlessly, we are not in conformity with the pattern shown in the Book of Mormon. The "most correct book" condemns us. But, then again, so does the word of the Lord precisely because we are not following the Book of Mormon. (D&C 84: 55-57.)
The highest form of acceptance and redemption is to have your calling and election made sure; to be washed and cleansed from sin every whit. Alma is preaching this to unconverted, investigating, potential converts. Today we won't even permit the subject to be raised in adult Sunday School, Priesthood, or Relief Society meetings because it is considered to be "too sensitive" for the members to consider. Have we, the Gentiles, rejected "the fullness of the Gospel?" (3 Ne. 16: 10.) Not as long as any of us (like salt or leaven) keep these doctrines alive.
If you want to know about this fullness and how to obtain it, then read the books I have written. That is what they are about. Alma was right! His message was true!
Let all come and partake. Everyone is invited. No institutional control should be used to prevent your search into this matter. It is right in the Book of Mormon. Though the institution may be condemned for neglecting it, you don't need to be.
So, let's turn to the next verse and see what wonders continue to unfold before our eyes....
"Have we, the Gentiles, rejected "the fullness of the Gospel?" (3 Ne. 16: 10.) Not as long as any of us (like salt or leaven) keep these doctrines alive."
ReplyDeleteGenesis 18:20-33 came to mind upon reading this. I've never thought of the comparison before, but I feel like it's a valid one to my limited understanding of things.
If then we must “bring forth fruit meet for repentance” shouldn’t we have a solid understanding of what that is?
ReplyDeleteIf it was well understood and we people had a good grasp of what to do to produce these fruits wouldn’t we see fruit all over the place?
If we saw that fruit all over wouldn’t we see sanctified people all over?
If we saw sanctified people all over would we see something close to, if not Zion?
There is another analogy to fruit and sanctified people in the scriptures. One that tells the story of the Lord bringing people into his rest from the house of Israel and the gentiles from the beginning until “cometh the season and the end; and my vineyard will I cause to be burned with fire.”
Though the subject is not taught or outlined in the gospel principles book I hear it being taught.
ReplyDeleteOur Bishop came back from a training today that he had yesterday with Elder Ballard and others. It was taught, or at least he (my bishop) taught that wanted to see the face of the Lord and that we needed to be out visiting and administering as He would, or out as Him. That we needed to be rescuing others, or rather pulling them into the life boat as we seek to be rescued by our Savior.
So, I think, I hope, that though it's not in the manual there is hope.
AND lets please go on, because I want this association more then I want ANYTHING ELSE! I want to be with my dear friend, even my Savior. "I want my flesh to be consumed in His love" I know He loves me and I want to be there for Him. I want to take care of Him, or his suffering that I see in the face of so many around me. I want Him to be able to count on me as I count on him. I want to join with him in the greatest of all works.
I mean I know he has done all the heavy lifting, I just want to do whatever I can to help, to be with him, to become as He is.
JR Morgan,
ReplyDeleteI agree with your bishop, that to see the face of the Lord we must be doing what he would be doing, we must be trying to save souls.
And I believe the 1st soul we are commanded to save if they need it, is our spouse & then our children. If we don't save them by the sealing power, when they need it, we won't be able to save even our own soul.
From Brandon :
ReplyDeleteThe only problem with teaching this doctrine is that human error is involved. Interpretation of the scripture has always had mulitple sides/ideas. If deep doctrines are taught, they would be taught all the time, have conflicting views or opinions, and people would try to puff themselves up in front of everyone else. It would make the church unbearable, really. I think the other side needs to be considered, Denver. Human error does not always make it a bed or roses.
I was reading some about the school of the prophets and D&C 88 had these verses:
ReplyDelete138 And ye shall not receive any among you into this school save he is clean from the blood of this generation;
139 And he shall be received by the ordinance of the washing of feet, for unto this end was the ordinance of the washing of feet instituted.
Is being sanctified or having your calling and election made sure the same as being clean from the blood of this [our] generation? Is the ordinance of the washing of the feet that which accomplishes that or which symbolizes that such has occurs? If so, I wonder why the Lord did so for Judas in addition to the other apostles.
Deep doctrine does not insinuate that it is difficult to understand. It's far more difficult to churn through 52 lessons over and over and over and over again. The Second Comforter and this blog represent some of the most refreshing opportunities for growth I've encountered in years. Even the milk of the gospel is more effectively understood and applied as it is fit in context with the greater whole. Without a greater understanding of the greater whole it can be like getting jello to stick on a wall for some.
ReplyDeleteInstead of Ready, Fire, Aim, pure doctrine allows us to take solid aim before firing. I love knowing what I'm aiming for and understanding the process for arriving there. It helps so much that has happened in my life make sense. I can see where I thought my faith had failed me and how persistence has led to unimaginable blessings, and allows me to better understand opposition's corollary to how high we are reaching into heaven. It puts context to it all and adds to my knowledge and faith. It's extraordinary!
Consider that when the Savior Himself prophecies concerning the works that his disciples will do, and our works do not measure up in the least to His actual prophecies, what are we to learn of that? Know any LDS today who raise the dead? Know anyone who causes mountains to flee or rivers to move out of their course? Who is the last LDS you know who walked on water? Have you been translated recently? And yet, we of His church somehow believe we are doing all things Christ did and greater--as He prophesied we would do. Isn't it about time we get really, really real with ourselves. It is insane to continue the milk before meat argument after nearly 200 years. Why aren't we one; why don't we have all things in common? Why? Why? Why?
As a trial Lawyer, I think Denver is presenting an incredible case as to Why? Why? Why? I'm looking forward to helping with what we can do about it.
We can toodle along thinking all is well in Zion for another couple of hundred years, or we can accept the Standard Christ set, we can accept the fullness doctrine offered by the Book of Mormon; we can repent and obtain the audacity to develop faith in Christ's Standard, and perhaps like popcorn beginning to pop, more and more of His Saints will fully apply the redemptive process to receive of the Fullness of the Gospel and then begin to show forth the real fruits of repentance. I believe it will happen and that as it does, it will be a new standard that Saint after Saint will embrace.
As that begins to happen, fears over those who will be puffed up will be the last thing we worry about? Such fears are only more unjustifiable reasons for not embracing the path of redemption fully?
As for me and my house, we desire to part the veil and enter His presence to receive greater light and knowledge and to be succored by Him in all things we must do to receive the patriarchal priesthood, and to become one with the family of God. This is the most glorious doctrine I've ever encountered. I gladly give away all my sins to know the Lord and to be redeemed.
I can hardly breathe. Keep going. :)
ReplyDeleteA few years ago I came out of a lifelong fog about the Word of Wisdom, and after I did, I looked back, remembering how I used to think, and I was amazed at how blind I had been. Just recently, thanks to a long and kind process that the Lord has been putting me through -- this blog being one of the greatest gifts -- I am coming out a fog about the Church, and I am again amazed at how I used to think.
ReplyDeleteI think I make a really good "every man" (although I'm a gal), meaning, I think I've experienced thinking and feeling like most regular Mormons in America and especially in Utah. So I think where I'm coming from is pretty typical for how most Utah Mormons have thought and believed.
My, how my thinking is changing.
JDS just did a really good description of what's going on, and how we have been diddling around for 178 years. Here's what I'm seeing COULD BE the Church:
The popcorns pops in the pan (great analogy, JDS), and many people in the Church start to understand what it means to "Come Unto Christ", and this understanding is taught more and more openly and clearly. We go through a Great Division, and those who can't stand this depart from us. We are sad, but we continue forward. The Church becomes a place where many, many people have entered into the Rest of the Lord, and the rest of the people in the Church are working on it. Our missionary work is about bringing people to Come Unto Christ, to repent, and come into His presence, where they can be redeemed and also enter into His rest. This is Zion. We have all things common among us. People "join the Church" to become one with us and to receive the ordinances that help them along this incredible path. Some people take years to achieve this, some take weeks, some take 3 days. We are all glad.
When I compare this with how I used to think, I'm shocked and amazed. And I'm really grateful for the Gospel, the Savior and His Atonement, the Book of Mormon, Denver & Stephanie and other true messengers, and the patience and kindness of my Father in Heaven and His Son.
(p.s. -- to the weaker sex: don't feel bad. I love you. I've taken lots of baits. Keep on coming. You're needed.)
JDS! AMEN!
ReplyDeleteWeaker sex I'm with Kisi I have taken bait and probably dropped a few in the water myself. :0) But I'm just a pious man talking, one which the world revolves around! ;) That was a joke... Is that allowed? My attempt at keeping things light. I imagine the Lord makes jokes. Least I hope he does. It would sure be a waste of all knowingness not to drop a few one liners.
Brandon,
ReplyDeleteI think we see the solution for the dilemma you presented in Words of Mormon 1:16-18
...and after there having been much contention and many dissensions away unto the Lamanites, behold, it came to pass that king Benjamin, with the assistance of the HOLY PROPHETS who were among his people — For behold, king Benjamin was a holy man, and he did reign over his people in righteousness; and there were many holy men in the land, and they did speak the word of God with power and with authority; and they did use much sharpness because of the stiffneckedness of the people— wherefore, with the help of these, king Benjamin, by laboring with all the might of his body and the faculty of his whole soul, and also the PROPHETS, did once more establish peace in the land.
as well as in Enos 1:22-23
And there were exceedingly many prophets among us. And the people were a stiffnecked people, hard to understand. And there was nothing save it was exceeding harshness, preaching and prophesying of wars, and contentions, and destructions, and continually reminding them of death, and the duration of eternity, and the judgments and the power of God, and all these things—stirring them up continually to keep them in the fear of the Lord. I say there was nothing short of these things, and exceedingly great plainness of speech, would keep them from going down speedily to destruction. And after this manner do I write concerning them.
JDS,
AMEN! Today I started to understand for the first time the real meaning of Matthew 11:28-29
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you REST. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find REST unto your souls.
---Doug
Really nice insight Doug.
ReplyDeleteI love the idea of tuning into the fact that there are those with this "holy calling" among us. Prophets, but not prophets in the being in positions of authority in the Lord's Church sense.
That came up in Sunday school and it was the whole "they don't have the right to receive revelation" point came up, the lesson was on Saul and Samuel and how you know Saul over stepped his bounds in making the offering, when Samuel was late. I tried to make the point that we can all receive all no matter of office. That we can all be prophets... but that point got watered down, but the whole testimony is the Spirit of prophesy point. I felt like the false doctrine of Spiritual limitation was being reinforced.
There was also a high counsel talk today that had a lot of do what your told doctrine. I mean the point was made, and made well, that you can receive revelation on the counsel you get. BUT there was no course for what to do if you you feel like the counsel is NOT inspired. And to me to have this experience, meaning hearing counsel that is uninspired, then falls into the "Your a gossiper if you talk about having a difficulty with counsel" Which I don't think is true. By the way the High counsel talk was still really good and was full of some very faith promoting good stuff. Actually one of the better HC talks in a LONG time!
NOW I'm not trying to go off topic here...LOL.... just really relating to what has been said on this idea and the idea and place of these "Holy Prophets" or those "called" with a "holy calling" that we should be perhaps open to them, looking for them, and hearing them.
Obviously the Lord is using them to be out amongst the people assisting in getting the general membership moving in the Zion direction. As in the time of Melchizedek etc. I mean "THE Prophet" can't be everywhere. It's just too bad that with the cult of personality idea in place in the mind us Mormons, we are deaf to hear them (the other prophets called) because they are NOT the authorized Prophet so we don't regard what they say with the same weight we do the Presidents. WHICH really is VERY VERY sad.
It is a disservice to us (the general membership of the Church), but that IS what we have been taught in a cultural sense. YOU LISTEN TO THE KEYS! AND REALLY ONLY the keys. Brother so and so is just a little kookie don't bother with him. Which you should, but we should ALL be listening for DOCTRINE.
I mean I taught the "rest of the Lord" doctrine in EQ 2 Sundays ago. I taught that if we want to be in Zion we have to be able and ready to stand in the presence of the Lord and so we needed prepare and do that now or we would be doing that then.
I spoke it plainly but I don't feel like what I was trying to say was heard, but maybe I don't know enough to teach it with POWER yet. BUT I assume that if Pres. Monson was there teaching it, it would have been received differently. NOW For sure it would have been because he has POWER, more then I and he has KEYS higher up the food chain then me.
BUT why didn't they hear me? I will work on the me part, for sure, but are they working on the them part? I worry they are not. And I shared the worry with them in love and humility. Well, at least that was my intent.
In this context, I also am wondering if the two prophets who will be slain in Israel will be members of the 12 or those we are talking about here?
ReplyDeleteOK, I'm going to try and put in words a thought that has knocked me off my feet in its simplicity and depth at the same time. I'd like to get reactions as to whether or not anyone else thinks its a good way to describe it if they see what I mean. I think it's a useful tidbit along with this chapter study (some may call this splitting hairs, but hang tight) and I know it needs refining:
ReplyDeleteAll outward ordinances are Aaronic, even if they are called Melchizedek ordinances (like in the temple). They are all symbols of higher realities. Some of them are labeled Melchizedek because they rightly belong as symbols of Melchizedek levels of power, yet the ordinance itself is still Aaronic. When considering where one is at on the path, no one can claim a Melchizedek level of power through ordinances since they are all outward. The powers of heaven are the only indicator of progress beyond preparatory ordinances. So, let us call ourselves Elders and High Priests, and we are just practicing like kids dressing up in kindergarten as the people they want to be when they grow up.
I know two thoughts that damage the above interpretation: All Priesthood is Melchizedek, and the powers of heaven involve ceremonies that are also called ordinances, so I am necessarily speaking in a framework that assumes division between Priesthood levels and ordinances that exclude these two realities just mentioned. I'm speaking to the level of what the first conceptions would be to people joining the Church and going through the temple for the first time would be in an effort to cause more clarity at that stage about just what is happening to them and just what is not (not yet, at least) This would all be unnecessary if everyone received the power of heaven at the time they receive the outward ordinance, but how can prescribed traditions for advancement in the ordinances account for personal levels of righteousness that requires a powerful force of discerning judges in Israel? We have a long way to go before that. And then, most of the ordinances are all mashed together in one boatload of information outpouring that its near impossible to chew on one part at a time, although it is nice to have it all put together for an overview's sake. And then, there are some ordinances that always require a heavenly counterpart and will always be practice unless the heavens are opened immediately after the first time practicing, like during the Kirtland temple. As an example on the other end of the spectrum, I do believe baptism can and frequently is attended by confirmatory power, but there are higher ordinances that have confirmations that are much more than just the Holy Ghost being present. Is any of this making sense?
Is a short way of saying this: Every ordinance is symbolic of a certain level of power that comes from heaven. If you've done things right, you will receive that confirmation and power. If you don't receive that power, don't worry, the ordinance itself is good practice for receiving it when you do get it right. The Holy Ghost will confirm all the ordinances as true teachings, but also understand that the confirmations will go beyond just the Holy Ghost as the ordinances progress. The powers should increase until you are redeemed and enter into the presence of God Himself. Don't be content with just the Holy Ghost, but do expect His presence from start to finish.
-Brian
JDS said, "Instead of Ready, Fire, Aim, pure doctrine allows us to take solid aim before firing. I love knowing what I'm aiming for and understanding the process for arriving there."
ReplyDeleteThis reminds me of what it says in Alma 13: 2 and D& 93: 19
2 And those priests were ordained after the order of his Son, in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption.
19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.
This pulling together more and more. I am, however, finding it difficult right now to do my regular work -- plant the garden, clean the house, and do all the other 50,000 things I'm supposed to be doing. All I want to do all day is read this stuff and think about it and talk about it. I have to go get a haircut right now, and I'm wondering if I can be reading my laptop while my hair is being cut. :)
Kisi said: I am, however, finding it difficult right now to do my regular work -- plant the garden, clean the house, and do all the other 50,000 things I'm supposed to be doing. All I want to do all day is read this stuff and think about it and talk about it.
ReplyDeleteI have to chuckle because everyone around me think's I'm a space cadet! I'm always lost in deep thought, but I have to come down to planet earth from time to time. Each day is becoming a learning adventure, but I still have to strive to keep a balance.
BRIAN, your description reminded me of Gen 3:24 (and other references):
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Could the cherubim represent angels or true messengers of God, and the flaming sword be the POWER of God (fire has to do with the validating aspect of the Spirit, as in "baptism by fire," and the sword having to do with our promises, as in you "cut" a covenant)? Could this be a direct representation of the Book of Mormon?
Another scripture that came to mind (which interestingly is at the very end of the Book of Mormon) is Moroni 10:31 And awake, and arise from the dust, O Jerusalem; yea, and put on thy beautiful garments, O daughter of Zion; and strengthen thy stakes and enlarge thy borders forever, that thou mayest no more be confounded, that the covenants of the Eternal Father which he hath made unto thee, O house of Israel, may be fulfilled.
It seems that we parade about showing the world what we think are our beautiful garments, when indeed, we are wearing the Emperor's New Clothes!
---Doug
LOL, Doug! I like your thoughts and will be chewing on them for a while, and contrary to what you said in your other post, I think you should keep the humor coming! Kisi, I've liked your comments, too. You've opened up how your mind tackels issues and its neat to see. Same goes for everybody else, really.
ReplyDeleteOn my mission, I began to study and ponder the idea of santification, what it really meant and how you achieve it. I never got past more than a vague understanding of it. Reading and studying alongside Brother Snuffer and you all has really opened my eyes these past couple of months to this and other concepts. So many things in the scriptures have come alive and been made more literal. I love looking at Alma 13 from this fresh perspective, trying to separate culture and tradition from pure doctrine.
ReplyDeleteIt's like a whole new layer has been peeled back, and like you, Kisi, I find it hard to concentrate on the mundane. I can't wait for naptime when I can sit back and study and ponder. I also can't sit and wallow in pop culture anymore. I am still relatively young, but when my peers start talking about contemporary television or movies, etc. my mind just shuts right off. I desire to speak about something with more substance. Not to say they aren't wonderful people, but I just frankly don't care about that stuff at all anymore, and I find myself having a hard time finding people I can relate to. (I hope I don't sound self-righteous because boy do I have a long way to go). I love coming here for that community. I feel we need a forum so we don't hijack these excellent posts but have a place where we can bounce ideas off each other.