tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3880654315943365046.post291650746023814994..comments2023-05-18T08:46:59.064-06:00Comments on from the desk of Denver Snuffer: 2 Nephi 29: 4-5Denver Snufferhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13850530477432070456noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3880654315943365046.post-58590808584081319812010-08-16T14:34:02.544-06:002010-08-16T14:34:02.544-06:00Zang,
I appreciated your post. Thank you.
Yes, I ...Zang,<br />I appreciated your post. Thank you.<br /><br />Yes, I do feel strongly about eternal marriage. I mention aspects of it when I think it's important to what we are discussing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3880654315943365046.post-16979996731348191632010-08-15T23:18:18.941-06:002010-08-15T23:18:18.941-06:00Thanks for both the thoughts, Doug and Anonymous. ...Thanks for both the thoughts, Doug and Anonymous. And I appreciate you sharing your view about the veil, too. It's nice to take a rest from the debate and refresh appreciation to remember there are people behind the words. Blogs can be a frustrating medium.<br /><br />I still hold that all opinions deserve their voice. I think we can move forward with more civility after this, yes? There may be some minute differences, and they may be important differences, but I have also ranged in my views to include all the thoughts that have been expressed at some point or other. <br /><br />I think we all just want the right to contemplate every alternative in the quest for the truth in its complete form, whatever it may be. I am becoming firmer in what I believe due to it growing and sprouting on its own, but it has not grown up to perfection yet. Therefore, I am not able to portray it correctly all the time.<br /><br />So you have some views about the importance of eternal marriage it seems, Anonymous. And since this is Denver's blog, are you mentioning it because you feel it fits in with the topic being discussed, perhaps feeling it is an important piece that is maybe being neglected in either the blog or the comments? I'm just trying to anticipate where you're going with it and wanting you to expound on your views.Brian Zang (The Zang Family)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08307604832271130264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3880654315943365046.post-77680828946438461692010-08-15T22:38:01.584-06:002010-08-15T22:38:01.584-06:00Zang,
I agree that we all have alot, if not mostl...Zang,<br /><br />I agree that we all have alot, if not mostly common ground on this subject. If we were all sitting around discussing this face to face, I'm sure we could come to understanding & agreements alot easier & faster. I wish we could get a discussion group together.<br /><br />As far as my view of crossing the veil? I surely believe it should be all of our greatest thought & desire each day. But I know that the secret to it is sitting across the dinner table from us each night. <br /><br />I believe it's far easier & doesn't take near the time we may think to receive it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3880654315943365046.post-84870638570624273862010-08-15T22:10:59.687-06:002010-08-15T22:10:59.687-06:00I think we're trying to set a new record for t...I think we're trying to set a new record for the number of posts on this one.<br /><br />Brian, I like the thought of Christ's burdens being "light." As in not related to weight. Also, you're right. There is a lot of "violent agreement" going on. Although, I never really felt that it was contentious. Anonymous has never expressed him/herself that way.<br /><br /><br />It is a seemingly small thing, but the origination of the works I do is an important doctrine to ponder. It really can make the difference of heaven or hell... But we've discussed it enough, I'm sure. We are where we are. <br /><br />Anonymous, I'd love to talk to you some time. Like Denver says, you can't judge someone's intent by their actions (or even their words), so I just assume that everyone on here has the same intent... to come closer to Christ. And that's where I hope we all have common ground. Let's move forward with hope in Christ!!<br /><br />---DougInspirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07915227658956979023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3880654315943365046.post-12646982900328700292010-08-15T21:03:10.339-06:002010-08-15T21:03:10.339-06:00Anonymous August 15, 2010 6:45 PM: How is your int...Anonymous August 15, 2010 6:45 PM: How is your interest in crossing the veil as soon as you can in this life as Denver suggests in his books? Just curious of your outlook on that.<br /><br />Doug: Try using a different definition for the word "light". Not to say other definitions don't have their use, but let us suppose that after finding that <i>our</i> part in the repentance process is easy, we find the work God gives us after is still very burdensome (<i>at least</i> to start--let us suppose). If there is a heavy burden still, and a lot of work to do (suggested by the yoke idea), then this hypothetical would have to throw out "light" as a reference to "weight". What else could "light" refer to? That's a rhetorical question.<br /><br />I think we're getting to mince words in some of these arguments. There really is a lot of common ground. The point is there is work to do. It has been said God authors the work and we have to perform it. This may relate to repentance. There is an awful state of mind called hell. A man filled with the love of God is anxious to help people avoid it. We all agree with Anonymous really, it seems. There is no argument. We are simply adding that the work we do is classified as originating with God's thoughts about how it should be done and if we think up how to do it without revelation, we will fail. That is an additional thought. I don't think Anonymous really has an issue with that...do you? Why is there a contention on this? Just because it sounds like the saved by grace doctrine? That is not what we are saying. We've gone over that. Are you hell-bent on thinking you're right and everyone else is wrong?<br /><br />When it comes down to it, I think we are in agreement here, really. This is strange. Is there anything we can help you with? You are amongst friends. What is bothering you?Brian Zang (The Zang Family)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08307604832271130264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3880654315943365046.post-35440448353152770902010-08-15T19:45:33.261-06:002010-08-15T19:45:33.261-06:00When we cross the veil we are going to see how muc...When we cross the veil we are going to see how much our brothers & sisters have to suffer for their unrepentant sins, far more than we would ever want even our worst enemny to suffer. We will feel to plead for mercy for them & wish we could save them, but the price must be paid.<br /><br />When we realize how great our unrighteous loved ones & friends suffering will be in the next life, if they don't repent here, we, like Alma the Younger, will do anything, or apply any consequence that is needed to help them repent here before it's too late, & where the suffering is not near as great.<br /><br />Since most of us would have a hard time excommunicating someone for serious sins, that is why Heavenly Father has already made the call for us & requires leaders, by Prophet's command, to apply excommunication most of the time for unrepentant sins like all forms of adultery, abuse & abandonment & other serious sins.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3880654315943365046.post-71499702869225212082010-08-15T16:49:27.574-06:002010-08-15T16:49:27.574-06:00One last thought. What if while we (or anyone else...One last thought. What if while we (or anyone else) being harrowed up in the memory of our many sins, did turn to the memory of the Savior, who atones for all who receive? What if, while catching hold onto this thought, we cried in our hearts, "O Jesus, thou Son of God, HAVE MERCY ON ME, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death!"<br /><br />Could it be that this one act would take away the memories of our pains, to be harrowed up no more? Could it be that this one act would change us so much, so that our joy would become sweet and exquisite? Could we then behold other angels, singing praises to their God, indeed would we want to sing praises ourselves, and have a desire to labor without ceasing that we might bring others to taste that same joy? <br /><br />Is it possible, that all we have to do is cry unto the Lord, "O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me!" with pure intent, and our once heavy laden yoke now becomes light as we strive to do God's work and not our own?<br /><br />Could it really be?<br /><br />---DougInspirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07915227658956979023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3880654315943365046.post-89639703177814215552010-08-15T16:21:37.565-06:002010-08-15T16:21:37.565-06:00I find the "oddly we excommunicate" comm...I find the "oddly we excommunicate" comment very different, and a bit strange, compared to the 5th chapter of Eighteen versus, which I just finished.<br /><br />I think your comments in the book are right.Doxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11229489025173839494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3880654315943365046.post-20370605854046768152010-08-15T01:19:10.578-06:002010-08-15T01:19:10.578-06:00...and for those who find Denver's posts uncom......and for those who find Denver's posts uncomfortable to contemplate or offensive, don't flatter yourselves, the parable is not about him. It's intended for everyone, myself included.Brian Zang (The Zang Family)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08307604832271130264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3880654315943365046.post-74616288315015582722010-08-15T01:11:16.293-06:002010-08-15T01:11:16.293-06:00Anonymous:
You sound terribly hurt. There appears...Anonymous:<br /><br />You sound terribly hurt. There appears to be much pain in your words. <br /><br />You've done well at communicating your view about forgiveness, restitution, consequences, justice etc... and why you feel the way you do. I think those who read your words will understand you. <br /><br />Looks also like Doug has shared some uplifting scriptures and a different viewpoint on the subject that is having a hard time getting through the fog of hurt and pain. <br /><br />Many of us reading (I'm assuming) do want to understand you, we care, we want to see and share joy, to see love and light come to our fellow blog commenters. <br /><br />Just as a point to ponder. May be just my opinion... But your words and sentences are phrased as though you are speaking universal truth. THE truth. Yet it's pretty clear that what is said are just YOUR views. Views that are very concrete and not willing to see it any differently. I thought for a while about what it would be like if I were to implement your belief system about restitution and forgiveness and consequences for sin. The fruits were a bit sour. <br /><br />None of this was/is meant to offend you. If I didn't care, I would have not said anything at all. By all means ignore my comment and don't read any further if I'm not saying anything of value. <br /><br />The scriptures shared in this back and forth with Doug in my view were peaceful, calm, elevated, anything but sour. They made me feel happy and loving towards all, yet aware that my responsibility isn't hypothetical challenges, or a burden to swallow an entire lake of difficulty that isn't asked of me. <br /><br />Hope your open to the possibility that there may be an more too this topic than the current way your viewing sin and what consequences should be imposed to help a person repent. There may in fact be much more to it that brings more fruits of joy, and elevated thought. <br /><br />Can't speak for the others reading and occasionally commenting on this blog but you are welcome here, we want to offer love, many of us are glad you share your thoughts concerns and experiences. Our hope as I see it, is to share light, truth and correct any error through meaningful discussions.<br /><br />TrevorAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3880654315943365046.post-66882037729139445252010-08-15T00:01:41.197-06:002010-08-15T00:01:41.197-06:00A parable: There was once a man whose wife left hi...A parable: There was once a man whose wife left him and married another. This man searched and searched his heart and the Lord revealed to him that his cause was just, and the wife was wayward. Yet, this is all that the man desired to know of the Lord. He took it upon himself to showcase the justness of his cause, by being the best righteous fellow he could be. He sought no praise from anyone for this, which strengthened the justness of his case. He became very good at it, which intrigued the devil. The devil enjoyed watching the spectacle, but wasn't sure this man would pull it off. The devil became very impressed with the lengths to which this man would go to hide from his pain. True, the pain, if realized, would almost bring the man to death in suffering if suffered all at once, but this man was so persistent in his cause of ignoring the pain, that he didn't even allow for incremental mourning. The devil became ecstatic and sealed a mark upon the man's head. He delighted in the soul he had won. The end.Brian Zang (The Zang Family)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08307604832271130264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3880654315943365046.post-85478532122076857282010-08-14T20:24:20.993-06:002010-08-14T20:24:20.993-06:00Anonymous,
To clarify:
* YES! The opportunity to ...Anonymous,<br /><br />To clarify:<br />* YES! The opportunity to repent is always there! Isn't it beautiful? His hand is extended all the day long, if we but RECEIVE IT.<br /><br />* Obviously, there is some effort required on our part. But it's not (IMO) pain, suffering and 10 lashes, but a broken heart and contrite spirit (my will is broken and I am eager to do God's will).<br /><br />* I believe the "work" comes as a result of true repentance, not the other way around. If there is restitution or other good works, glory be to God! For He has directed me there and given me the opportunity for service, closure or whatever is required. But it's HIS will, HIS works, not mine. When did Alma the younger and the sons of Mosiah truly repent? They had done some big time damage. Was it after the years of work in the mission field, or after the angel appeared to them the first time? Could it be that the WORKS they did, were their attempt to sing praises to God? When Ammon was rebuked for boasting, he did not say that he now felt that he had finally repented after all these years of working for some sort of restitution. He said, "...let us glory, yea, we will glory in the Lord; yea, we will rejoice, for our joy is full; yea, we will praise our God forever. Behold, who can glory too much in the Lord? Yea, who can say too much of his great power, and of his mercy, and of his long-suffering towards the children of men? Behold, I say unto you, I cannot say the smallest part which I feel..." Once repentance happened, the fruits of it were manifested and claimed as God's, not his.<br /><br />Anyway, as much as I have enjoyed this conversation, it's probably time to move on. There is more delicious fruit awaiting us. Come, let us partake!!<br /><br />---DougInspirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07915227658956979023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3880654315943365046.post-39029572074323944562010-08-14T19:30:51.643-06:002010-08-14T19:30:51.643-06:00Doug,
I read those scriptures to say that we are o...Doug,<br />I read those scriptures to say that we are offered or granted the 'opportunity to repent', not repentance as a completed thing that HE does for us. <br /><br />It's actually absolutely impossible for God to give us 'Repentance', even though he might love to, but that would be like helping a chick out of it's shell. We would die spiritually & not be able to learn & progress as we need to. <br /><br />Repentance is one thing he has no power to give, he cannot make or get anyone to repent in this life or even the next. That must be our decision & hard work. It is a work that every person must earn & do themselves, though he can help us do it. <br /><br />It is a most sad thing to him that he cannot step in & stop all the suffering in the world, especially for innocent people, by making or doing the work of repentance for wicked people. <br /><br />It sounds like your take on all this is just another way of wishing we could get out of our personal responsibility & obligation of having to 'work our our salvation'.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3880654315943365046.post-44514821895265024082010-08-14T18:24:02.533-06:002010-08-14T18:24:02.533-06:00"I do not agree that repentance is a gift...&..."I do not agree that repentance is a gift..."<br /><br />Alma 13:30<br />And may the Lord GRANT unto you repentance [not forgiveness], that ye may not bring down his wrath upon you, that ye may not be bound down by the chains of hell, that ye may not suffer the second death.<br /><br />Alma 42:22<br />But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance [not forgiveness] GRANTED; <b>which repentance, mercy claimeth;</b> otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.<br /><br />Alma 22: 14<br />And since man had fallen he could not merit ANYTHING of himself (is restitution my own merits? Are pain and suffering my own DEMERITS?); but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth; and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory..."<br /><br />Alma 24: 10<br />And I also thank my God, yea, my great God, that he hath GRANTED unto us that we might repent of these things, and also that he hath forgiven us of those our many sins and murders which we have committed, and <b>taken away the guilt</b> from our hearts, through the MERITS OF HIS SON. (again, is restitution and sorrow my merits or His?)<br /><br />Hel. 14: 13<br />And if ye believe on his name ye will repent of all your sins, that thereby ye may have a remission of them through HIS MERITS.<br /><br />I do agree that he brought the higher laws. The question is, which laws am I living today? The "higher" or the "lower?"<br /><br />BTW, the definition of GRANT: to bestow, confer, give, offer, transfer.<br /><br />Anyway, it's not my intention to Book of Mormon bash with anyone. I just want to ask the question (and then I'll be quiet): Is it possible that like so many other things we've discovered recently, could the idea we have had about repentance which was taught to us all these years... could THAT be an unbelief (or perhaps the "lower" law)? What does it mean if it is? What would happen if I pleaded to the Lord to GRANT me repentance?<br /><br />---DougInspirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07915227658956979023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3880654315943365046.post-3878793600905696052010-08-14T16:59:53.885-06:002010-08-14T16:59:53.885-06:00Doug,
Christ did not have to follow the lower laws...Doug,<br />Christ did not have to follow the lower laws of the day. He brought the higher laws, which taught that stoning for adultery is not right anymore, if it ever was.<br /><br />But Christ still would have required her to 'work out her repentance,' including much restitution to her husband for his pain & suffering.<br /><br />I do not agree that repentance is a gift, forgiveness is a gift but repentance is a 'work' we have to do & restitution to the amount possible is always required & also can be a hard thing to do, but we will want to do it to make up for our wrongs.<br /><br />While Heavenly Father can help us & strengthen us to repent, we must do much of the work ourselves by learning to control our thoughts, words & actions.<br /><br />When Charity 'suffereth long' it is talking about the pain & suffering brought on by other people's sins. <br /><br />Like if your spouse is out every night having an affair while you are home alone, if you have Charity you would choose to still love & be faithful to them & treat them kindly & lovingly when they do come home, even if their sins cause you much pain & suffering until they repent someday. And yes, it also includes lots of patience. <br /><br />But while suffering for & because of a spouse's sins you would also apply, or have leaders apply, firm consequences for them, to help them repent.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3880654315943365046.post-52513355309557999162010-08-14T14:38:06.481-06:002010-08-14T14:38:06.481-06:00"Pure love applies firm consequences when nee..."Pure love applies firm consequences when needed, which usually is needed in serious cases."<br /><br />Moro. 7:47<br />But charity is the <b>pure love</b> of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.<br /><br />Moro. 7:45<br />And charity suffereth long [is this 'pain and suffering' or patience?], and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things...<i>[and applies firm consequences when needed.(?)]</i><br /><br />I'm not trying to mock, Anonymous. What I'm wanting to say (and perhaps the others are too) is that true repentance is a gift that is granted to us. There is nothing we can do of ourselves to merit it, other than accept it. Restitution may come, but like a friend recently told me, it, too is a gift from the Savior. Then again, I might not be directed to make restitution. Regardless, if I accept repentance, I am forgiven.<br /><br />Repentance meets the demands of justice through Jesus Christ, our Mediator. In my mind, if I demand pain and suffering to a repentant soul, then the Lord says, "Okay, here is the whip. I will take the lashes." That's not something I care to experience.<br /><br />Justice demanded that the woman taken in adultery be stoned. It was the law. We do not have to know what happened after the Savior forgave her. He was justified in throwing a stone at her. That was the prescribed pain and suffering associated with the serious case of adultery. The woman hadn't committed adultery against the accusers, yet they were willing to inflict pain. And it was just. The Lord was willing to pass on applying/encouraging suffering and pain, even though it was perfectly appropriate in that society.<br /><br />At any rate, it's not likely that my words or expressions of true love (charity) will have an effect on anyone. Maybe Christ's will.<br /><br />---DougInspirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07915227658956979023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3880654315943365046.post-86105238991631337822010-08-14T12:50:19.749-06:002010-08-14T12:50:19.749-06:00Mercyngrace,
I understand pure love. Though we ar...Mercyngrace,<br /><br />I understand pure love. Though we are commanded to love our enemies, that does not mean not disciplining them for serious sins.<br /><br />For not even pure love will usually change those who are really hardened or past feeling, at least not in this life. Those who commit serious sins, as the ones mentioned above, usually need something painful to wake them up & in some cases they will never wake up & repent in this life & thus they need to be permanently restricted so they don't hurt anyone anymore.<br /><br />The problem with our society today is sin & crime are so often left unpunished or given just a slap on the hand. Thus such light consequences just encourage the person to continue to get worse & worse, not repent.<br /><br />Marriages & Families in the Church are disintegrating rampantly because is seems there is little being done to discipline abusive, adulterous, abandoning spouses. <br /><br />Most spouses I know who break their marriage covenants & divorce are just let right back in the temple to remarry someone else & the misery continues to get worse for all involved, whether they realize it or not. The children's testimonies are shattered no matter how perfect the new remarried couple tries to act, for it appears to the children that the Church doesn't consider marriage covenants sacred anymore, so why should they? <br /><br />Pure love applies firm consequences when needed, which usually is needed in serious cases.<br /><br />Now, if a person will repent without having to have any consequences applied here on earth, then that's wonderful, no discipline needed. But it's very rare that a person repents from serious sins on their own without the help of others applying consequences.<br /><br />Love is usually spelled D-I-S-C-I-P-L-I-N-E.<br /><br />And yes, I have read Elder Burtons talk many times. And I agree with him. Punishment & Pain is not repentance, it is something usually needed to help people to repent. Repentance is a change of heart + restitution, If people would have a change of heart there is no need for punishment any longer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3880654315943365046.post-21483569541086018522010-08-14T07:12:23.491-06:002010-08-14T07:12:23.491-06:00Anonymous,
Have you never seen someone saved beca...Anonymous,<br /><br />Have you never seen someone saved because he was extended compassion? Paul and I have. In fact, as he put it "We love Him because He first loved us." He also says Christ loved us while we were yet enemies. The extension of that undeserved kindness, that act of grace, changed me. And I've seen it work wonders in the lives of others when I have been willing to bear an injustice on their behalf.<br /><br />Pure love changes people. Pure justice just casts them out. I don't want my loved ones cast out, Anonymous. I want them changed.<br /><br />MnG<br /><br />PS You didn't read Elder Burton's talk did you?Mercyngracenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3880654315943365046.post-82576588452172354632010-08-13T13:26:41.615-06:002010-08-13T13:26:41.615-06:00Anonymous 12:11 said:
"Restitution is the fru...Anonymous 12:11 said:<br />"Restitution is the fruit of repentance. Not the other way around."<br /><br />That sounds like repentance is separate from restitution. I believe restitution a part of the process of repentance. <br /><br />I would call restitution the fruit of a 'change of heart' for even a change of heart is not total repentance. There is still much work to be done. <br /><br />Many people have a 'change of heart' about their sins, but still don't make full restitution. But without restitution a person hasn't fully repented. <br /><br />I know many people who had divorced their spouse & who later felt bad about it & knew it was wrong, but they never went back to that spouse & tried to get them back & put the family back together, even if it took the rest of their lives to convince the other to trust them again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3880654315943365046.post-87714969716807484692010-08-13T13:14:41.716-06:002010-08-13T13:14:41.716-06:00In order to maintain the Spirit here, I vote we no...In order to maintain the Spirit here, I vote we not 'criticize' or 'name call' other's comments, just because we may disagree with them. <br /><br />Let's just agree to disagree & be free to state our points & let the Spirit decide what is true or not.<br /><br />For if we criticize & degrade others, the Spirit can't be here & it thus becomes pretty useless to keep discussing anything.<br /><br />We can't believe anything written here. We must take it all to prayer, for only the Spirit can tell us what is truth & what is a philosophy of men. No one here has the power to decide that for others.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3880654315943365046.post-71346265792695356402010-08-13T13:11:57.024-06:002010-08-13T13:11:57.024-06:00Restitution is the fruit of repentance. Not the ot...Restitution is the fruit of repentance. Not the other way around.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3880654315943365046.post-62787441888490801922010-08-13T13:05:50.679-06:002010-08-13T13:05:50.679-06:00Just because the Savior forgave the woman taken in...Just because the Savior forgave the woman taken in Adultery doesn't meant she had a change of heart yet & would not commit the sin again. He only admonished her to not continue in the sin. We don't know if she was strong enough to listen to his counsel or not. As we see today, adultery is a pretty heavy addiction to overcome. Most never can over come it in this life, despite the Savior's teachings they know to be true & punishments they might receive.<br /><br />Yes, there are times when a person can realize their wrongs on the spot & start the repentance process with a complete change of heart. But repentance is still a process, restitution being the greatest part. <br /><br />A repentant person will go on with their changed heart, but still have to feel pain & remorse at the memory of their sins & how they hurt others. And if their sins were really serious, they usually spend the rest of their life making restitution by doing all they can to put things right again & make it up to the injured persons & restore trust again.<br /><br />The reason we must adminster the demands of justice when needed is because if we don't, we will bring condemnation on our own heads. For we maybe could have saved sinners & souls had we used consequences upon them to help them repent.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3880654315943365046.post-29110133610888757292010-08-13T12:11:09.827-06:002010-08-13T12:11:09.827-06:00There seems to be a lot of philosophies of men goi...There seems to be a lot of philosophies of men going on here. Don't take the bait! It is more of a reflection of where the individuals stand than it is a declaration of truth. <br /><br />The notion of everyone must feel pain for a sin, or pay the price via suffering was conjured up by those in power, seeking to oppress their congregations. How do you think the apostate church of antiquity filled their coffers? With the money from those making (literal) payment or penance for their sins. The root of "repent" comes from the same meaning as "suffering" (poena) and regret (penitire). You will not find that version of the word in the Greek or earlier translations of the Bible.<br /><br />I see no support in the scriptures that it is requisite that repentant individuals must suffer for their sins. In fact, the opposite is indicated:<br /><br />* When a man with palsy was brought to the Lord, He forgave the faithful man's sins, and he was instantly healed, his suffering released. There was no trip to the doctor, or a prescribed period of healing. It was instantaneous.<br /><br />* When the woman taken in adultery was brought to the Lord, he said that he did not condemn her, and to "go, and sin no more." He didn't add, "and follow a 12 step program of the wickedness of adultery, and feel sorry for a long long time... THEN you will be forgiven." Why do we put words in God's mouth and make assumptions? Why do we not accept things as simply stated in the scriptures? Is it possible that the woman was forgiven then and there, and all her suffering nipped in the bud?<br /><br />* When we hear of the thief, who on the cross proclaimed the Lord's Kingship and acknowledged his own crimes, and that he will be with Christ in Paradise, we like to add, "but that doesn't mean he will actually be saved. The man will have to go to spirit prison and suffer for his sins, because it doesn't really count that he repented right before he was to die." Why do we not believe Christ?!<br /><br />* Literally moments after the Lamanites were slaughtering their brethren, they became distraught and repented of their murders... RIGHT THERE. It was practically instantaneous. As soon as they did, they became numbered with the "people of God" because they were forgiven on the spot by the victims. THEY WERE MURDERERS! It does not say that they went through a long period of pain and cleansing, to make their way back into the fold, or that they became second class citizens or doomed to the Telestial Kingdom because they had murdered. In fact, it says they became the "people of God" and "therefore, we have no reason to doubt but what they were saved." Does the acceptance of the forgiving Lamanites have anything to do with them becoming people of God? Could it be that the born-again Lamanites made no claim of justice on those who were murdering?<br /><br />I believe there is more pain involved with recognizing our unbeliefs and turning from them, than there ever should be for paying a price for sin after we have repented. This is the basis by which we're going to be judged, people. Why take a chance and demand justice, when we can relinquish that for ALL others, and thus, for ourselves?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3880654315943365046.post-10942757387728528732010-08-13T10:01:56.690-06:002010-08-13T10:01:56.690-06:00Heavenly Father & Christ do not set the demand...Heavenly Father & Christ do not set the demands of Justice. Justice just is. It's an eternal law that even the Gods must respect & live by.<br /><br />Pain or punishment is an absolute requirement of Justice. The pain actually & ideally mostly comes from our conscience, especially in the next life. But in this life we are obligated to apply painful consequences to hopefully bring people to the pain in their conscience about what they have done wrong. <br /><br />It is 'everyone's' responsibility to a certain extent, to help bring people to feel the pain in their conscience & repent. Basically that's what we are doing when we give talks & lessons in Church. We try to do it gently. But sometimes people refuse to repent & thus more forceful restrictions must be applied, for their good, so they will hopefully one day finally miss certain blessings & want to earn them back, like freedom out of jail or membership in the Church or earn their family back. <br /><br />Most people in this world though will never fully repent until the next life, when sufficient pain of conscience is applied to help them repent.<br /><br />It helps if we take this to a personal level. Imagine if, as a parent you allowed your son to hit your daughter & never stop him or discipline him. How long would the daughter feel like forgiving her brother if she knew he would never be punished or stopped from hurting her repeatedly & her whole life she knew he would hurt her. <br /><br />How long would a person be forgiving of a person who continually stole from them or hurt their children over & over. Or how long would a spouse feel loving & forgiving of their spouse who abused them or cheated on them repeatedly with no end in sight or punishment from God ever. How many people would stay married to that spouse & love & forgive them despite all they continually do to them? Would you? <br /><br />Without Justice (knowing they are going to suffer for what they have done, in this life or the next) it's very hard, if not impossible to feel forgiveness for them.<br /><br />The promise of justice or punishment is vital to being able to forgive.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3880654315943365046.post-63963790132376938492010-08-13T04:39:20.629-06:002010-08-13T04:39:20.629-06:00Anonymous 11:06
I don't think anyone is advoc...Anonymous 11:06<br /><br />I don't think anyone is advocating that justice isn't necessary or vital. The question lies in who is the one who sets the standard for "justice". The Lord does it perfectly and it is His responsibility. Man does it imperfectly. I think most are saying because that is reality, leave it between the Lord and the individual. We should have less involvement rather than more. Just my thoughts.<br /><br />"When someone hurts us, if we thought nothing was ever going to happen to them for their sins & they would forever get away with it, would make it very difficult for us to have compassion on them & want to forgive them."<br /><br />I don't think I fully understand the above statement. Forgiving others shouldn't have anything to do with whether or not we think they will be punished or get away with something. Forgiving others means that we have faith in Christ and the atonement, who payed for all our sins and knows how to succor perfectly. I thought Denver's chapter regarding this in "Come Let Us Adore Him" was the most profound I have read. I would recommend rereading that.<br /><br />JMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com